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Old 04-26-2020, 05:26 AM   #1
FlatheadV8Mike
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Default Same Clutch noise problem after third assembly and a lot of archive searches

Hi all,
I did many searches on the archives here.
Also I head a looong thread at The Hamb.
The guys there told me to ask you guys, cause you are out there are the real gutus and know much more details.
Ok, my story:
1936 Ford 1950 Merc Flatty, stroked and dual carbs, plenty of power. Love the car soo much.bought it from Pennsylvania. T5 tranny. Stock bellhousing with adapter.
Stock Type TO (Aetna), three arm pressure plate, clutch disc Centerforce, pilot bearing.
Its starts with a noise while touching or pressing the clutch pedal, even slightly. The most of you will tell me TO.
Ok, changed the TO.
Noise still there....
So, next round,I changed pressure plate and found out the new Centerforce clutch, compared to the chinese one, which was in, would tough the fly wheel screw heads. So I grinded them down, till there have to be enough space.
Assembled all together - noise gone.
...for 150 miles...now, there is the scratching noise exactly as the motor rpm again, while toughing the pedal....the noise is sometimes more, sometimes less. Yesterday it was horrable loud, when I was driving with my wife.
After cooling down a bit in the Garage...it was less.
Noise sounds like scratching metall...grrg...grrrg...grrg...if you let the pedal go it leaves...
If have an idea...so...please...please let me know....this is the fourth time I reassemble everything...even recommends for changing things will be helpful...hope to get rid of it..
If you need a video let me know - car is assembled actualy..
Michael from Germany
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Old 04-26-2020, 05:55 AM   #2
tinkirk
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Default Re: Same Clutch noise problem after third assembly and a lot of archive searches

Without actually hearing it,
It makes me think that the t o bearing is not turning like it should
Had one years ago that every time pushed the clutch in it would squeal
So what about clutch forks not adjusted equally and to bearing not pushing straight
Terry


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Old 04-26-2020, 05:59 AM   #3
FlatheadV8Mike
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Default Re: Same Clutch noise problem after third assembly and a lot of archive searches

Hi again.
Sorry for my type writing mistake.
Of course I meant gurus not gutus in my text above.
Here is a video with desription:
You can hear the noise while pressing toughing the clutch pedal...within the engines rpm. Also you can hear a sqeaking noise while let the clutch pedal, let it back in its rest position.
..any idea?
Why is it sometimes louder and sometimes quieter?
This time on the video it is quiet. It was really loud the day before...
Link to video:
https://youtu.be/eezb0A9tnMk
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Old 04-26-2020, 06:07 AM   #4
tinkirk
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Default Re: Same Clutch noise problem after third assembly and a lot of archive searches

Yup sounded like mine when i first
pushed it in, T O bearing not turning freely or not hitting the clutch forks evenly
Teery


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Old 04-26-2020, 06:08 AM   #5
JWL
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Default Re: Same Clutch noise problem after third assembly and a lot of archive searches

I remember a problem like this one. The thrust flange had broken at the crankshaft allowing the flywheel to rub when pedal pressure was applied. I just happened to be observing the front pulley when the clutch was applied and noticed the considerable forward movement. Hopefully this extreme diagnosis does not apply to you. It is significant labor to correct such a problem.
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Old 04-26-2020, 06:21 AM   #6
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Default Re: Same Clutch noise problem after third assembly and a lot of archive searches

Quote:
Originally Posted by JWL View Post
I remember a problem like this one. The thrust flange had broken at the crankshaft allowing the flywheel to rub when pedal pressure was applied. I just happened to be observing the front pulley when the clutch was applied and noticed the considerable forward movement. Hopefully this extreme diagnosis does not apply to you. It is significant labor to correct such a problem.



That's what I was thinking when I listened to the video...flywheel pushing forward and rubbing on something at the rear of the block. I agree with JWL-check crankshaft end play and clearance at flywheel to back of block,especially at oil pump gear cover bolts and perimeter of flywheel. Maybe a bolt has a washer that doesn't belong and is too close? Should be evidence of rubbing as loud as the sound is.



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Old 04-26-2020, 06:31 AM   #7
FlatheadV8Mike
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Default Re: Same Clutch noise problem after third assembly and a lot of archive searches

Hi all,
Thanks a lot for your answers.
Even if the crankshaft theme scares me..
Perhaps a mainiingless question, but...
Would this issue perhaps affect the oil pressure, while pressing the clutch pedal?
This I meant yeterday - today, when I made the video, it was not affecting...
So I thought I was wrong yesterday...
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Old 04-26-2020, 06:35 AM   #8
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Default Re: Same Clutch noise problem after third assembly and a lot of archive searches

...forgot one thing...the noise is even if I only tough the pedal. Would this move the crankshaft, too?
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Old 04-26-2020, 07:02 AM   #9
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Default Re: Same Clutch noise problem after third assembly and a lot of archive searches

As soon as you put pressure on the TO bearing it moves the crank if the axial clearance of the crankshaft is to big.
I had a customers engine do this and he didnīt want to tear it apart...i made a shim for the flywheel and noise was gone...not the correct way...but the fast and easy way.
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Old 04-26-2020, 07:09 AM   #10
FlatheadV8Mike
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Default Re: Same Clutch noise problem after third assembly and a lot of archive searches

..thanks for the hints and info.
I just tried with my wife about the crankshaft.
Even if she pushes the clutch hard, the front pulley did nothing. Car was shut off. Than, we started the car and even she only toughes the pedal very very slightly...no pressure at all. The noise was there...dont think she moves the crankshaft without no force....or wrong?
Please advice me...
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Old 04-26-2020, 07:37 AM   #11
flatheadmurre
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Default Re: Same Clutch noise problem after third assembly and a lot of archive searches

Crankshaft is floating so doesnīt take much force to move it axial...and itīs not easy to see the tiny movement.
Put dial indicator on it and see if you can move it forward and back...
Next step is probably to get the flywheel off and see if you can track down anything that has been rubbing on each other...
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Old 04-26-2020, 08:41 AM   #12
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Default Re: Same Clutch noise problem after third assembly and a lot of archive searches

If you're just barely touching the pedal (not really disengaging the clutch) and you hear a funny noise, to me I'd sure be pondering the throw-out bearing. Some of the new repop ones are of very poor quality. That would be the first thing I'd check.

Also, does the noise change or STOP once you push the pedal a lot further in? Sometimes a throw-out bearing will make a noise when it first starts to touch/turn, but then it changes once real pressure is applied - can be another kind of clue.

Also, how much did you have to grind on the flywheel bolt heads? If you had to grind much at all, then I would NOT be using that approach - get a new/different clutch disc. and replace the bolts.

The last thing you need is a failure of bolts on the flywheel - can cost you your legs. Not trying to be an alarmist, just that when you do things like this as a result of having the wrong part in your hands, it kind of worries me. (And we've all done stuff like this at one point in time).

Also, once your clutch disc wears out a bit, then the springs will probably be hitting your bolts once again.

Good luck!

Last edited by Bored&Stroked; 04-26-2020 at 08:47 AM.
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Old 04-26-2020, 09:00 AM   #13
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Default Re: Same Clutch noise problem after third assembly and a lot of archive searches

I know you don't want to take it apart again, but, you need to check the the alignment of the hole for the transmission and the crankshaft. 6 thousandths (.006) is the MAXIMUM runout there should be.
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Old 04-26-2020, 09:13 AM   #14
FlatheadV8Mike
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Default Re: Same Clutch noise problem after third assembly and a lot of archive searches

Hi all and again thank you...
I will take it appart and will take the time to figure it out with patience. You are right with the bolts...I grinded them a lot. But now have really space between screw heads and the torsion springs... I will send picture when I have it apart again. Also I will measure the crankshaft play. Have to do a search to learn how to do it. Dial indicator is not a problem got one with magnetic food and a flexible arm. I have to fix this issue!!
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Old 04-26-2020, 09:29 AM   #15
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Default Re: Same Clutch noise problem after third assembly and a lot of archive searches

Since you have a dial indicator, and you plan on pulling either the engine or the trans to do the clutch work, then you can indicate on the flywheel flange of the crankshaft. Then, you can use any sort of pry bar to fit behind the flywheer (against the block) and push the flywheel to the rear (then zeroing the dial indicator), then use a 2x4 or something to force it back to the front . . . and you'll see the amount of movement on the dial indicator. Do this a few times and you'll have a good idea the total amount of axial movement of the crank. When we build engines, this is a very important part of the initial component check-outs. I usually shoot for about .004 or so.
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Old 04-26-2020, 11:13 AM   #16
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Default Re: Same Clutch noise problem after third assembly and a lot of archive searches

Just throwing it out but is it possible the counter weights on your PP are coming in contact with the bell housing?
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Old 04-26-2020, 11:18 AM   #17
Kurt in NJ
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Default Re: Same Clutch noise problem after third assembly and a lot of archive searches

If you can put a couple of drops of oil on the face of the bearing/finger tips of pressure plate and the noise goes away there is a alignment problem with the snout of transmission and the crankshaft centerline making the fingers scrub in-out on the face of the bearing, a little oil will stop it for a while
I worked on a car that had the clutch out over 10 times at 4 different shops, ---what I noticed was alot of wear on the contact surfaces of the fingers and the face of the bearing---a lot of wear for something that had so many new parts so many times---the bellhousing dowell pins were missing

you have a modified engine to non original transmission---how was it centered to the crankshaft centerline, perhaps there is a centering ring/adapter that is out of place or missing----or something went wrong on the alignment of the adapter plate
if you have a dial indicator indicate the crankshaft to the part of bellhousing that aligns transmission if possible
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Old 04-26-2020, 11:41 AM   #18
FlatheadV8Mike
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Default Re: Same Clutch noise problem after third assembly and a lot of archive searches

I do not have counter weights - I cut them away...but thanks for the idea!
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Old 04-26-2020, 11:48 AM   #19
FlatheadV8Mike
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Default Re: Same Clutch noise problem after third assembly and a lot of archive searches

Also thank you for that recommendation.
I have just been at the car with friend and showed him the noise. Again it was not very loud this time. And even I use one finger on the pedal...I can start making the noise.
So, do you think you move the crank with one finger?
I got about 3/4 inch of free play - even i move that bit...you can hear the noise.
I will take it apart next week and will let you know and send some picture.
I am really happy to stay with you all guys here, who have that patience with me....sometimes we are like young boys....as you of course know..
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Old 04-26-2020, 11:48 AM   #20
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Default Re: Same Clutch noise problem after third assembly and a lot of archive searches

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt in NJ View Post
...

you have a modified engine to non original transmission---how was it centered to the crankshaft centerline, perhaps there is a centering ring/adapter that is out of place or missing----or something went wrong on the alignment of the adapter plate
if you have a dial indicator indicate the crankshaft to the part of bellhousing that aligns transmission if possible
I'm wondering if this car has a Speedway adapter for the T5? I have heard many times of issues with clutch components scraping on these adapters. Usually just a little grinding needed to clear.

Also wondering if the flywheel has been turned enough times that it's time for replacement. Disc hitting the bolt heads seems to indicate that as a possibility.
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