Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Model A (1928-31)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-05-2010, 10:24 PM   #1
'29wagon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: H.B. California
Posts: 451
Default internal engine enamel

so what is this glyptal 1201 anyway, and do they have a competitor? does this product really work and since it's an enamel is there a ratio of mix of something to cut the cost of eighty bucks a quart? what is recommended otherwise? anyone?
'29wagon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2010, 11:10 PM   #2
Mike V. Florida
Senior Member
 
Mike V. Florida's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: South Florida
Posts: 14,052
Send a message via AIM to Mike V. Florida
Default Re: internal engine enamel

Supposed to allow the oil to flow better down to the pan. How much better is anyones guess. But let me add that many engine rebuilders do use it.
__________________
What's right about America is that although we have a mess of problems, we have great capacity - intellect and resources - to do some thing about them. - Henry Ford II
Mike V. Florida is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 08-05-2010, 11:22 PM   #3
Russ/40
Senior Member
 
Russ/40's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Santee, California
Posts: 3,245
Default Re: internal engine enamel

It's purely psychological. Puts a classy touch on an engine build. Supposed to seal the block and facilitate oil flow. HUEY!
Russ/40 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2010, 11:52 PM   #4
MikeK
Senior Member
 
MikeK's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Windy City
Posts: 2,882
Default Re: internal engine enamel

Glyptal adds a layer of thermal insulation between the block and the oil. Considering the great mass difference between the block and the oil, this leaves the oil returning to the pan relatively cooler and the block HOT AS HELL. Just what you need in a model A; oil that doesn't get hot enough to evaporate condensation, acids, and other blowby junk, and another way to keep heat in a block with a primitive cooling system. It looks pretty though, and covers minor cracks and other uglies a rebuilder wants to hide. A foole and his $80 are soon parted???
__________________
Mechanical engineering 101: If you put an adjustment knob, screw, bolt, or tolerance specs on something, some people will immediately fiddle with it. If you mark it DO NOT TOUCH everyone will mess with it.
MikeK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2010, 12:03 AM   #5
'29wagon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: H.B. California
Posts: 451
Default Re: internal engine enamel

okay , psychological , the upside. MikeK's the down side.
let's say if it were just applied to the valve chamber and to the head in the combustion chambers . sure MikeV's rebuilders use it but is it applied everywhere ? I'd intend to use it in only the most problematic areas and yea, to not block from heat dissipation.
thanks.
'29wagon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2010, 12:14 AM   #6
MikeK
Senior Member
 
MikeK's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Windy City
Posts: 2,882
Default Re: internal engine enamel

Quote:
Originally Posted by '29wagon View Post
okay , psychological , the upside. MikeK's the down side.
let's say if it were just applied to the valve chamber and to the head in the combustion chambers . sure MikeV's rebuilders use it but is it applied everywhere ? I'd intend to use it in only the most problematic areas and yea, to not block from heat dissipation.
thanks.
Interesting. Inside the valve chamber is exactly where I would NOT want it, and I don't think anybody, Glyptal fans included, would ever put it anywhere in a Model A head.
__________________
Mechanical engineering 101: If you put an adjustment knob, screw, bolt, or tolerance specs on something, some people will immediately fiddle with it. If you mark it DO NOT TOUCH everyone will mess with it.
MikeK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2010, 12:36 AM   #7
'29wagon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: H.B. California
Posts: 451
Default Re: internal engine enamel

thanks MikeK,
seeing that in an eastwood ad applied in various locations and yea questoning the truth of that product , i thought i'd ask.
and i miss quoted MikeV, sorry. "many engine rebuilders use it" .
i'd like to see where that product turned for the worse.
i didn't buy it, hadn't planed to, but if applied correctly to an A block, other than blocking heat dissipation, is there a good point, and if so, where?
'29wagon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2010, 08:38 AM   #8
skip
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin
Posts: 408
Default Re: internal engine enamel

Why coat the inside of the block and keep the oil from carrying away the heat of combustion? Sure it looks nice but who is going to see it? Oil does a much greater job of heat removal than most folks are aware.

Heat seeks cold.

skip.
skip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2010, 10:28 AM   #9
Purdy Swoft
Senior Member
 
Purdy Swoft's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Alabama
Posts: 7,963
Default Re: internal engine enamel

Quote:
Originally Posted by '29wagon View Post
so what is this glyptal 1201 anyway, and do they have a competitor? does this product really work and since it's an enamel is there a ratio of mix of something to cut the cost of eighty bucks a quart? what is recommended otherwise? anyone?
I haven't used Glyptal in any of my overhauls, mostly because of the price. Lots of GOOD engine builders do and I think that it is a good thing.

I remember when I use to subscribe to the Performance Automotive Wholesale catalog, they advertised that they used red Rustoleum inside their engines.

If I used either of the enamels inside an engine, my main concern would be getting the block PERFECTLY CLEAN before application. You sure wouldn't ever want it to flake off and stop up the oil pump screen or oil passages. If you think about it, you would NEVER want to put paint in the combustion chambers of the head. The paint would burn off and the residue couldn't be good for the valves or anything else.
Purdy Swoft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2010, 11:01 AM   #10
d.j. moordigian
Senior Member
 
d.j. moordigian's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Fresno, Ca.
Posts: 3,601
Default Re: internal engine enamel

With out starting a war, I have done this for 41 yrs. with Rustoleum 7769. It seals
the internal surfaces and the only thing that takes it off is Nitro or a hot tank. Ford
used a coating in the 8" & 9" rear ends, Caterpillar and I believe John Deere use a
coating inside the engines & gearboxes. If anything it will raise the temp by sealing
the surface just like the outside of the block. It helps keeping the engine clean,
the crap in the pan for draining and it could help sticking the dist. in the Model A.
I doubt anybody could tell if an engine is painted on the inside by the water temp,
oil temp, or when you drain the oil.

Dudley
d.j. moordigian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2010, 11:41 AM   #11
Ron in Quincy
Senior Member
 
Ron in Quincy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Quincy, CA.
Posts: 1,708
Default Re: internal engine enamel

Some additional information about Red insulating enamel you might not be aware of :

For many years the Contenental Radial Airplane Engine inside cases were coated at the factory.

A local engine builder, who is known around the world for the quality of his rebuilding of radial engines, Holloway Engineering, Quincy, coats the interior of the cases of the radial engines.

I purchase a spray can from him when I run out. I coat the inside of the valve chamber, block cavity, engine pan, dip-tray,timing cover, flywheel cover, bell housing, and u-joint housing. It not only looks nice but seals the castings pores so there is no build up on the surface like you find when opening up a run engine. The oil in the engine stays clean and after over 1300 miles on my coupe engine when I checked it yesterday it looks like I just changed it. Maybe its my imagination, but I think the interior coating works ?

I also reinsulate armatures and field coils when rebuilding starters and generators.

If interested, you can get a full case, 12 16 oz spray cans, for $ 83.28 plus shipping. Its Epoxy Insulating Enamel, 401 Red, Wet-1200 V/mil, Dry-2100 V/mil, Penerates, coats and seals in one step:

Aervoe Industries Inc.
Gardnerville, Nevada
!-800-227-0196 (Customer service for order)
1-775-783-3100

Ron

Forget to mention, the 401 Red is also gasoline resistant .

Last edited by Ron in Quincy; 08-06-2010 at 11:53 AM.
Ron in Quincy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2010, 02:48 PM   #12
rotorwrench
Senior Member
 
rotorwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 11,812
Default Re: internal engine enamel

Gyptal products are an offshoot of General Electric. They make all sorts of heavy duty primers and corrosion preventative products that are getting harder to find and expensive. They also make several excellent insullating varnishes for your copper wire windings and such.

I see no problem with putting a coating inside an engine that will be prepped to stay there. I personally don't think it will effect the temperature of the engine all that much. Most engines are not equipped with an oil cooler and the oil will warm up to the temperature of the engine eventually anyway. The engine cooling system is designed to do what it does with no aid from the oil system. It is extra work that will only be seen by the engine assembler so it has no real benifit over the long term except for corrosion resistance. Oil always seem to find its way back to the pan even with the roughest of surfaces to flow on. Hell, sometimes it doesn't even want to stay in the pan and ends up in a little puddle on the garage floor.

I rebuild aircraft engines all the time and although I see no real problem with using it, I just don't see an advantage to it at all. The engine cooling system on an aircraft engine is two fold. Baffles to direct a flow of air through and around the cylinders and an oil cooler or series of coolers as well. Oil is specially directed at the hot spots so as to take the heat away. Many engines also have a dry sump with an external oil tank to boot. Down hear in the Texas heat the helicopter engines can use all the help they can get.

Kerby
rotorwrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2010, 03:43 PM   #13
Dave in MN
Senior Member
 
Dave in MN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Jordan, MN
Posts: 1,277
Default I am currently using it!

I see there are lots of votes to not use Glyptol or other enamel sealants and good arguments to support the comments...seriously; I will give it some additional thought as to whether I will continue to use it. Thank you to those that spoke up.

The following is my experience with "Glyptol" a synthetic enamel sealant:
I have used it on about 29 of the last 38 engines I have installed insert main bearings in. I only apply it if I have complete control of the cleaning of the block and other coated parts. I apply it immediately after the block and other parts are glass bead blasted and prior to the glass beading, hot caustic cleaned to remove all oil and paint, hot CLR soaked to clean the water jacket of scale and pressure washed. The parts must be oil free. I use it on or in the valve chamber, front timing gear area of the block, back side of the front timing gear cover, crankcase area of the block, top of the dipper tray and the inside of the oil pan. I mask off the pan rail areas and gasket touching portions of the block, oil pan and other mating surfaces.
I have found the surfaces you apply "Glyptol" synthetic enamel to must be perfectly clean...and the slight tooth from the glass bead prep I do helps to create strong surface bonding. What I have seen when pulling a pan with Glyptol for bearing inspection is...nothing...no sludge or evidence of any of the other stuff I often see in the bottom of pans without the sealer.

I did some tests on Glyptol before I started using it. I took an oil pan and glass bead blasted one inside surface, cleaned the other side with parts cleaner, and then re-cleaned 1/2 of the parts cleaner side with lacquer thinner. I sprayed the entire inside of the pan and let it dry 24 hours. I took a screw driver and tried to remove the coating. On the glass bead blasted area, the product would not come off; I had to wear through it to remove it. On the lacquer cleaned area, I could occasionally get it to release from the metal but really had to work at it. Where the surface was just cleaned with parts cleaner solvent, the material would come off with heavy scraping in small flakes. I believe the parts cleaning solution left an oily residue on the surface that weakened the bond. This test was for my purposes and anyone else completing their own tests may get different results. Based on the results of my testing, I decided not to coat the bottom of the dipper tray as I was not sure the lower baffles were not trapping a bit of oil or contaminant I could not remove that might cause it to peel.

One other experience to note: I installed an engine pan a customer had coated with Glyptol. The pan rail area, the rear edge of the pan that touched the rear cork seal and the front seal recess were all coated. I used RTV silicone between the paper gasket surfaces and took the usual care to get it right. I could not stop the oil from seeping out from various areas where the Glyptol coated pan met the block or normal gasket. I re-set the pan 3 times without success. I finally removed the coating from the pan with a wire brush in a right angle grinder wherever it touched another surface. The leaks stopped after removing the Glyptol. Obviously the silicone did not stick to the surface but also it was my opinion that the oil just had a tendency to creep across the surfaces coated with Glyptol.

Cost is not that much of a factor if Glyptol is purchased "right". I just started my 4th quart of product. That’s about 9 engines per quart of coating. Even at Eastwoods non-sale price of $49.00 per quart. It would cost about $6.00 per engine including solvent for clean-up. Cut the full strength Glyptol only as much as needed to get it through a spray gun. Every bit of the cut product can be mixed back with the full strength balance if you use the correct thinner. No waste! It can also be brushed on full strength.

Why do I use Glyptol?
1) From my experience and observation, the pan stays cleaner. The normal accumulation inside a pan flows out during oil changes.
2) It seals small cracks or porous areas in the castings that might let some oil pass to the surface.
3) The blocks clean up very quickly after the machining as I apply the Glyptol coating and first coat of exterior paint before it is line bored and the other machining is completed. Soap and water twice leaves them oil and machining chip free.
4) The coated parts and block looks good to the customer. They can see from the photos I take during assembly that everything is clean.
5) Some of the other engine builders use it and if I don’t, it looks like I am cutting corners.

Why should I consider not using Glyptol?
1) Heat dissipation as discussed in previous posts. I have to think seriously about this as to if it matters that much.
2) I could save some time and money in the engine rebuilding process.

I know this was a long commentary for a short question. Sorry I can not be more brief.

If you go to my website and look at some of the Glyptol sealed blocks… wouldn’t you have to admit…they look “pretty” good?

www.durableperformance.net

Good Day!
Dave in MN

Last edited by Dave in MN; 08-06-2010 at 04:40 PM.
Dave in MN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2010, 05:04 PM   #14
rotorwrench
Senior Member
 
rotorwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 11,812
Default Re: internal engine enamel

Oil soaps are a very sticky substance. I've only seen really bad deposits of soap and sludge on engines that are never completely warmed up during operation or ones that use strait mineral oil (break in type oil non-detergent) all the time. Engines that are run with detergent type oils and warmed completely up every time they are operated generally stay pretty clean inside but bare cast surfaces really catch any type of soaps or sludge that is produced. In that respect, the internal coating probably will be justified but only if a person uses the vehicle so much that they routinely have to open it up for overhaul. If a guy is in the engine rebuilding business then I can see one good reason for using it. Some folks take years to finish restorations and the engine may sit for a very long time. In that case it would keep it from rusting up in a place with high humidity and possibly causing warranty concerns. In that case why take the chance plus it does have a good look to it.

It's just plain up to each individual. Not a "have to do" thing but not a "must not do" thing either.

Kerby
rotorwrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2010, 05:13 PM   #15
CCWKen
Member
 
CCWKen's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: South Texas
Posts: 97
Default Re: internal engine enamel

I just replaced the pto seal in my Ford 3910 tractor a few weeks ago. The only way to get the seal carrier off was to pull the entire shaft out with it. When I looked deep inside to align a shim washer that slipped down, the entire rear end and transmission was coated in red. If it serves no prophylactic purpose, I hardly think Ford would use it just to make the inside look pretty.
CCWKen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2010, 06:53 PM   #16
Russ/40
Senior Member
 
Russ/40's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Santee, California
Posts: 3,245
Default Re: internal engine enamel

regarding Dave in MN narrative of his processes in engine rebuilding, I would think his use of Gyptal on the internal surfaces would be some gaurentee that any residue from the glass beading process would be mechanically bonded by the Glyptol to ensure it not become particulate in the oil. As has been stated, cast iron is very porous, and debris from glass beading the internal crankcase could be hazardous.
Russ/40 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2010, 08:43 PM   #17
Mikeinnj
Senior Member
 
Mikeinnj's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Northern New Jersey
Posts: 1,235
Default Re: internal engine enamel

Henry Ford must be scratching his head and laughing at everyone "trying to re-invent the wheel" (his wheel's)....(: )
Mikeinnj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2010, 12:28 PM   #18
Jim Brierley
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Temecula, CA
Posts: 3,337
Default Re: internal engine enamel

If it ain't broke, why fix it? Also if it isn't in there, it isn't going to cause any problems.
Jim Brierley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2010, 04:13 PM   #19
Old182
Senior Member
 
Old182's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Newburgh, NY
Posts: 222
Default Re: internal engine enamel

My recollection of painting the inside of engines originated in the 1960s with racers. The coating sealed any sand from casting or blasting (keeping it away from bearings) and also helped the oil drain back into the pan quicker, presumably keeping the oil cooler. I always figured it made sense to do this on engines that ran hot and needed extra protection from hard, small materials like sand or iron - like race engines, and as mentioned, aircraft engines. I agree with most here: It probably doesn't hurt, but why bother fixing a problem that doesn't exist on a street engine? Regarding Eastwood, they need to be visited by the FTC for selling other products that fix problems that don't exist also - bummer - I used to have faith in them.
Old182 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2010, 11:54 PM   #20
Milton
Senior Member
 
Milton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 837
Default Re: internal engine enamel

Quote:
Originally Posted by '29wagon View Post
so what is this glyptal 1201 anyway, and do they have a competitor? does this product really work and since it's an enamel is there a ratio of mix of something to cut the cost of eighty bucks a quart? what is recommended otherwise? anyone?
Krylon Companies Sprayon Brand A00601A00 Red Insulating Varnish. $7.33 including CA tax for a 15 1/4 oz. spray can available from Graingers and I also saw it at Dixieline for you local folks. I used it in a oil pan that I restored. Later I pulled the pan and could see every partical of metal that had settled under the windage tray after the engine was broke in.
Milton is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:31 AM.