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Old 03-07-2015, 01:18 PM   #1
sethkestenbaum
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Default Engine Rebuild: Leveling/Boring/Seats/Crank

Last Saturday Len Spinelli and I spent the day at J&M Machine and got to "help" them work on my engine. This was a phenomenally educational trip for me. We have a lot of it on video. The blog link is below and you can watch the J&M brothers really do their thing. The link includes video clips of the head being leveled, the block being leveled, the cylinders being bored/honed, the valve seats being shaped, cranks being straightened and ground, and more. Enjoy.

https://oldcarroadtrip.wordpress.com...-little-bored/
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Old 03-07-2015, 05:09 PM   #2
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Default Re: Engine Rebuild: Leveling/Boring/Seats/Crank

Seth, this is most interesting and educational thank you so much and I will definitely follow the progress
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Old 03-07-2015, 07:26 PM   #3
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Default Re: Engine Rebuild: Leveling/Boring/Seats/Crank

Seth, brings back memories of my dad surfacing heads. Thanks for the work putting on the Forum
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Old 03-07-2015, 07:34 PM   #4
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Default Re: Engine Rebuild: Leveling/Boring/Seats/Crank

most shops charge more if you watch or 'help' haha
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Old 03-07-2015, 09:20 PM   #5
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Default Re: Engine Rebuild: Leveling/Boring/Seats/Crank

Thank you for the link allowing us to view the comprehensive, expert methods of J&M Machine. Very impressive. Also, notice the modern up-to-date equipment. No dull tools and shoddy workmanship used by those 2 guys.

In my opinion, one could not find a better shop to have a Model A engine rebuilt anywhere in the United States. Anybody with any real knowledge of automotive engine rebuilding ought to be able to see it right off.

Thanks again.
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Old 03-08-2015, 03:12 AM   #6
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Default Re: Engine Rebuild: Leveling/Boring/Seats/Crank

Very nice videos.
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Old 03-08-2015, 10:44 AM   #7
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Default Re: Engine Rebuild: Leveling/Boring/Seats/Crank

Tbirdtbird, One of the things I like about the shop is their willingness to let me be part of the process and to share the process with fordbarn and the web. The whole thing is a tremendous education for me. J&M have been great in helping break things down to enable me to follow what they are doing. It appears that the videos are also being viewed, so that tells me that the subject matter is interesting enough for folks to actually spend time watching them.

Seth
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Old 03-08-2015, 02:55 PM   #8
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Default Re: Engine Rebuild: Leveling/Boring/Seats/Crank

Seth,
The videos are outstanding; thank you!
You're providing a great service to those of us who want to understand how Model A engines are rebuilt. I hope you'll also be able to capture the babbitting and peening processes.
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Old 03-08-2015, 11:08 PM   #9
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Default Re: Engine Rebuild: Leveling/Boring/Seats/Crank

Best post ever
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Old 03-10-2015, 01:09 PM   #10
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Default Re: Engine Rebuild: Leveling/Boring/Seats/Crank

One thing I discovered while I witnessed this work live is that it’s similar to cooking. Ninety-five percent of the process is in the “prep.”

Hey, it looks easy. Just press the button. Well not exactly. There was endless measuring, re-measuring, adjusting, re-adjusting, assessing and re-assessing.

One of the most impressive aspects was the forensic analysis. Based on a subtle nick, scratch, bump, crack, groove or out-of-round condition, the boys explained the cause and effect.
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Old 03-10-2015, 01:32 PM   #11
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Default Re: Engine Rebuild: Leveling/Boring/Seats/Crank

engineers term it 'failure analysis'.
For those of us that actively restore/rebuild/overhaul it is a must else the same problems will recur quickly
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Old 03-10-2015, 01:59 PM   #12
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Default Re: Engine Rebuild: Leveling/Boring/Seats/Crank

Most interesting THANKS MUCH!! Good to know!!
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Old 03-10-2015, 07:01 PM   #13
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Default Re: Engine Rebuild: Leveling/Boring/Seats/Crank

I don't see any torque plates on the engine block while it is being honed. I'm honing mine in my garage, by hand, and no plates. I thought a reputable rebuilder as J&M would use torque plates. Just an observation on my part.
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Old 03-10-2015, 09:23 PM   #14
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Default Re: Engine Rebuild: Leveling/Boring/Seats/Crank

Quote:
Originally Posted by goodoldvic View Post
I don't see any torque plates on the engine block while it is being honed. I'm honing mine in my garage, by hand, and no plates. I thought a reputable rebuilder as J&M would use torque plates. Just an observation on my part.
I got all hung up on this torque-plate or no torque-plate thing many years ago.
Measuring the distortion on an A block is easy. After honing (no plate) put the studs in, add a gasket (necessary, as the deck distorts into it) and torque down a head. Flip the block over and use your bore gauge to measure.

After finding the distortion less than -0.0002 only in the top inch on 1 & 4, and -0.00025 only in the top inch on 2&3 it became obvious to me that a torque-plate on a solid deck thick wall casting like an A block is a waste of time. You'll get way more distortion than that thermally when the running engine has cold water on one side only from the radiator return.
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Old 03-11-2015, 07:18 AM   #15
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Default Re: Engine Rebuild: Leveling/Boring/Seats/Crank

Quote:
Originally Posted by goodoldvic View Post
I don't see any torque plates on the engine block while it is being honed. I'm honing mine in my garage, by hand, and no plates. I thought a reputable rebuilder as J&M would use torque plates. Just an observation on my part.
I'm glad you mentioned it. Mike K gives a fine example and explanation.
Torque plates are designed to induce stress to simulate a assembled engine to recreate the cylinder head stress that the cylinders can be honed accurately.

Stock Model A engines don't have high cylinder pressure nor do they run at high RPM's. They have thick wall castings so distortion is held to a minimum as "MikeK" mentioned .0002" hardly anything to get worried about since cylinder wall to piston clearance is .003".

If you noticed I had mentioned in the video during the honing process; I'll alternate the holes honed to eliminate the heat generated during honing.
If I were to do two holes in close proximity of each other that portion of the block would grow.

I alternate the holes doing number three first and then number one hole.
Even only removing .005" as I mentioned in the video the friction of the stones during the honing process generates heat.


Modern engine cylinder walls are much thinner and require the torque plate.
GM LS block and Ford Triton 5.4/4.6 for example and others.
These engines also deal with higher cylinder pressures and have to operate in higher temperature zone near 200 degrees.

Since you are doing work by hand the key for you to remember is choose the right stone and measure constantly.
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Old 03-11-2015, 12:55 PM   #16
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Default Re: Engine Rebuild: Leveling/Boring/Seats/Crank

Thanx for the education and advise. This site is truly a Model A hobbyists bible/manual.
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Old 03-11-2015, 01:22 PM   #17
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Default Re: Engine Rebuild: Leveling/Boring/Seats/Crank

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeK View Post
I got all hung up on this torque-plate or no torque-plate thing many years ago.
Measuring the distortion on an A block is easy. After honing (no plate) put the studs in, add a gasket (necessary, as the deck distorts into it) and torque down a head. Flip the block over and use your bore gauge to measure.

After finding the distortion less than -0.0002 only in the top inch on 1 & 4, and -0.00025 only in the top inch on 2&3 it became obvious to me that a torque-plate on a solid deck thick wall casting like an A block is a waste of time. You'll get way more distortion than that thermally when the running engine has cold water on one side only from the radiator return.

Interesting contrast to the statements made by K.R. Wilson, renown toolmaker for Model A's back in the day.

K.R. Wilson explained that everything is a "jelly fish," and the apparently heavy, cast iron block of the Model A Ford is no exception. Wilson said this is easily proven by placing an inside mic in one of the cylinders, lightly touching the walls, and parallel to the crankshaft. Now squeeze the block between your own two little hands. What happens? The inside mic drops down, demonstrating that the cylinder bore has been forced slightly, very slightly out of round.
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Old 03-11-2015, 01:36 PM   #18
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Default Re: Engine Rebuild: Leveling/Boring/Seats/Crank

Quote:
Originally Posted by goodoldvic View Post
I don't see any torque plates on the engine block while it is being honed. I'm honing mine in my garage, by hand, and no plates. I thought a reputable rebuilder as J&M would use torque plates. Just an observation on my part.
Use of a torque plate was not unheard of back in the day. According to commentary by Murray Fahnestock, Ford tech engineer and writer for Ford Dealer and Service Field in the 20's and 30's; he said, "The fact that cylinder head bolts can pull blocks out of alignment is shown by the fact that Ford used dummy or skeleton cylinder heads, with bolts in place, to prevent distortion of valve seats when grinding valves on Lincoln cars."
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Old 03-12-2015, 11:11 AM   #19
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Smile Re: Engine Rebuild: Leveling/Boring/Seats/Crank

I had my engine rebuilt there about two years ago The Guys at J&M were great I stayed and helped them take apart my engine. They send me updates and pic along the way with the rebuild. I have had no problems with the engine runs Great ! If I ever have anything else I need for engine work I would use the Guys at J&M again.

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Old 03-17-2015, 08:27 PM   #20
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Default Re: Engine Rebuild: Leveling/Boring/Seats/Crank

Here's a Babbitt pouring appetizer at J&M.
I know, I know. I also want the main course.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1_hsSneWjI

Leo
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