The Ford Barn

daveymc29 · 10-08-2014, 10:43 PM

I have the rubber ball over the radius ball and find that to cotter pin the nuts, the springs become squashed entirely. So what may I be doing wrong? Was there a special cap that was thinner for the rubber ball? If so I better get out there and do a treasure hunt for it, or throw the rubber out and just use the iron to steel. Which is really best? I apologize if this has been beaten to death recently, as I am fairly new to ford barn. The motor mounts are in without any real hitches, See that post for how I did it, with tips from many here. Thanks

700rpm · 10-08-2014, 10:51 PM

There are metal shims that sometimes compensate for a worn ball. Throw away the worthless rubber thing and get those if your ball is bad. But that's only a bandaid fix. You should really either build up the ball or find a good replacement.

Chuck Sea/Tac · 10-08-2014, 11:59 PM

If you have the thin SS cap, then it's for the ball only, if slightly worn, then use a bent washer on top, or buy the special one. If thick cast, then it's designed for the rubber ball around the worn steel ball.

huddy · 10-09-2014, 07:38 AM

What they're telling you is that there are two cap arrangements, the original and an aftermarket.

The original is made of thin material and uses the springs with the cotter pins & castle nuts. The receptacle will only accommodate the radius ball with no rubber cover.

The aftermarket is a band-aid for a worn radius ball. It has a larger receptacle and uses the rubber ball over the radius ball, is made of heavy cast material, and does NOT use springs.

I believe that you can repair a worn radius ball by either welding on new material and grinding it round, or by cutting off the old ball and welding a complete new one in place. Do a search on the Barn and you'll find several threads on the topic.

Joe K · 10-09-2014, 08:04 AM

Above is correct - it's sounding like you have a "mix & match."

You need to get to one system or the other. Both systems are sold as parts from the parts vendors but both require some resemblance to a round ball 1-1/2" diameter on your wishbone - or the use of a shim washer to simulate round.

The cost of either system is not large - I seem to remember about $14 plus shipping for the rubber ball/cast iron version with the pressed steel/spring type only a little more.

There is slight advantage to keeping it original in that the replacement rubber/ball version affects your front end caster slightly (see diagram below.)

I have used both types and see little difference: others with a different degree of front end wear report issues with self-centering, shimmying and other perceived shortcomings with the rubber ball/cast type. To the rubber ball/cast type discredit - it was kind of a first stage farmer fix to steering issues of all kinds - and sometimes the farmer fix didn't work due to unrelated cause.

Ford, to their credit, went to the rubber ball type for vehicles after the Model A era - but the entire front end geometry was designed around the additional thickness of the rubber ball retainer.

You probably want to fall to one side or the other on this. You're talking safety and potential accident liability here.

Joe K

silversink · 10-09-2014, 09:34 AM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

go to the main board and ask if anyone saved their ball secion after splitting them for rodding. They would prob. give it to you for the shipping. I have one for splitting but still a couple years from doing so, too bad your not closer to trade.

Bob C · 10-09-2014, 12:44 PM

This is what you should have.

Bob

daveymc29 · 10-09-2014, 10:31 PM

So the rubber ball is used without the springs? Am I correct on that. I looked at two other A's today and both have the rubber ball and no springs. Both been working fine for many years that way, so the owners tell me. Thanks again, I am now with the rubber ball and the heavier cap, no springs. Just as pictured above, except my cap appears to be about twice as thick at the bolt bosses.

hardtimes · 10-10-2014, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveymc29

So the rubber ball is used without the springs? Am I correct on that. I looked at two other A's today and both have the rubber ball and no springs. Both been working fine for many years that way, so the owners tell me. Thanks again, I am now with the rubber ball and the heavier cap, no springs. Just as pictured above, except my cap appears to be about twice as thick at the bolt bosses.

Hey davey, NO SPRINGS.
Just for different perspective, I have a nicely round 11/2" front radius rod ball. It is same system you are using. I use 'neverseize' on the inside of the rubber cover prior to putting it on the radius rod ball. I tighten it down fully/firmly. I have checked and set my toe and the 16 in steel belt radials show no wear problems in 2500 mi useage. I do rotate my tires regularly. IMO, just keep checking your setup and entire vehicle periodically for looseness and regular lube.

Purdy Swoft · 10-10-2014, 11:09 AM

I use the rubber ball setup on all of my model A's and have since 1960. The original setup with springs was a flimsy setup and not one of Fords better ideas. Metal to metal contact wears the ball on the wishbone-radius rod quickly. Ford must have realized this and changed to the rubber ball setup in 32 . The rubber ball setup was used untill the radius rod front ends were discontinued in 1949. The rubber ball doesn't change the geometry or caster. Frame sag at the rear motor mounts changes the caster. Talking about band aid fixes, using the cupped washer on a worn out radius ball is a bandaid fix if there ever was one. All of the model A's that I have ridden in with the cup washer band aid fix all had shimmy to some extent. I've never seen the rubber ball setup cause shimmy

hardtimes · 10-10-2014, 02:50 PM

Hey Purdy,
Yeah..X 2 !
Good practical application and FACTS statement

!
Ford changed things as ALL that market goods/services do and did, i.e.- based on public use/feedback and demand for improvement ! It does this forum GOOD, for all to see / understand this practical information, even if they decide themselves...how they want their Model A built.

BTW...I love driving the Model A just the way Henry made it, but unfortunately barely any of those cars exist today...at least none that most can afford ! However, my 'slightly' improved '30 is a joy to drive, and I have driven lots of Model As in their old stock condition...with wobbling front ends , pissing on everything and smelling just right with the per-fumes coming up through a holly floorboard

!

10-08-2014, 10:43 PM	#1
daveymc29 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Danville, CA Posts: 1,553	Radius Ball question I have the rubber ball over the radius ball and find that to cotter pin the nuts, the springs become squashed entirely. So what may I be doing wrong? Was there a special cap that was thinner for the rubber ball? If so I better get out there and do a treasure hunt for it, or throw the rubber out and just use the iron to steel. Which is really best? I apologize if this has been beaten to death recently, as I am fairly new to ford barn. The motor mounts are in without any real hitches, See that post for how I did it, with tips from many here. Thanks

10-08-2014, 10:51 PM	#2
700rpm Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 5,902	Re: Radius Ball question There are metal shims that sometimes compensate for a worn ball. Throw away the worthless rubber thing and get those if your ball is bad. But that's only a bandaid fix. You should really either build up the ball or find a good replacement. __________________ Ray Horton, Portland, OR As you go through life, keep your eye on the donut, not the hole.

10-08-2014, 11:59 PM	#3
Chuck Sea/Tac Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Between Seattle & Tacoma Posts: 2,354	Re: Radius Ball question If you have the thin SS cap, then it's for the ball only, if slightly worn, then use a bent washer on top, or buy the special one. If thick cast, then it's designed for the rubber ball around the worn steel ball.

10-09-2014, 07:38 AM	#4
huddy Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Central NY & Central CA Posts: 316	Re: Radius Ball question What they're telling you is that there are two cap arrangements, the original and an aftermarket. The original is made of thin material and uses the springs with the cotter pins & castle nuts. The receptacle will only accommodate the radius ball with no rubber cover. The aftermarket is a band-aid for a worn radius ball. It has a larger receptacle and uses the rubber ball over the radius ball, is made of heavy cast material, and does NOT use springs. I believe that you can repair a worn radius ball by either welding on new material and grinding it round, or by cutting off the old ball and welding a complete new one in place. Do a search on the Barn and you'll find several threads on the topic. __________________ Owning an antique car is "start fixing one thing, find four other things that need fixing." Lather, rinse, repeat.

10-09-2014, 08:04 AM	#5
Joe K Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Cow Hampshire Posts: 4,188	Re: Radius Ball question Above is correct - it's sounding like you have a "mix & match." You need to get to one system or the other. Both systems are sold as parts from the parts vendors but both require some resemblance to a round ball 1-1/2" diameter on your wishbone - or the use of a shim washer to simulate round. The cost of either system is not large - I seem to remember about $14 plus shipping for the rubber ball/cast iron version with the pressed steel/spring type only a little more. There is slight advantage to keeping it original in that the replacement rubber/ball version affects your front end caster slightly (see diagram below.) I have used both types and see little difference: others with a different degree of front end wear report issues with self-centering, shimmying and other perceived shortcomings with the rubber ball/cast type. To the rubber ball/cast type discredit - it was kind of a first stage farmer fix to steering issues of all kinds - and sometimes the farmer fix didn't work due to unrelated cause. Ford, to their credit, went to the rubber ball type for vehicles after the Model A era - but the entire front end geometry was designed around the additional thickness of the rubber ball retainer. You probably want to fall to one side or the other on this. You're talking safety and potential accident liability here. Joe K __________________ Shudda kept the horse.

10-09-2014, 09:34 AM	#6
silversink Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Dayton Oregon Posts: 318	Re: Radius Ball question Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) go to the main board and ask if anyone saved their ball secion after splitting them for rodding. They would prob. give it to you for the shipping. I have one for splitting but still a couple years from doing so, too bad your not closer to trade. __________________ Hotrods don't have valve covers

10-09-2014, 10:31 PM	#8
daveymc29 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Danville, CA Posts: 1,553	Re: Radius Ball question So the rubber ball is used without the springs? Am I correct on that. I looked at two other A's today and both have the rubber ball and no springs. Both been working fine for many years that way, so the owners tell me. Thanks again, I am now with the rubber ball and the heavier cap, no springs. Just as pictured above, except my cap appears to be about twice as thick at the bolt bosses.

10-10-2014, 11:09 AM	#10
Purdy Swoft Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Alabama Posts: 8,099	Re: Radius Ball question I use the rubber ball setup on all of my model A's and have since 1960. The original setup with springs was a flimsy setup and not one of Fords better ideas. Metal to metal contact wears the ball on the wishbone-radius rod quickly. Ford must have realized this and changed to the rubber ball setup in 32 . The rubber ball setup was used untill the radius rod front ends were discontinued in 1949. The rubber ball doesn't change the geometry or caster. Frame sag at the rear motor mounts changes the caster. Talking about band aid fixes, using the cupped washer on a worn out radius ball is a bandaid fix if there ever was one. All of the model A's that I have ridden in with the cup washer band aid fix all had shimmy to some extent. I've never seen the rubber ball setup cause shimmy

10-10-2014, 02:50 PM	#11
hardtimes Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: South California Posts: 6,188	Re: Radius Ball question Hey Purdy, Yeah..X 2 ! Good practical application and FACTS statement ! Ford changed things as ALL that market goods/services do and did, i.e.- based on public use/feedback and demand for improvement ! It does this forum GOOD, for all to see / understand this practical information, even if they decide themselves...how they want their Model A built. BTW...I love driving the Model A just the way Henry made it, but unfortunately barely any of those cars exist today...at least none that most can afford ! However, my 'slightly' improved '30 is a joy to drive, and I have driven lots of Model As in their old stock condition...with wobbling front ends , pissing on everything and smelling just right with the per-fumes coming up through a holly floorboard !