Are drawings from the Ford Archives copyrighted?

[30cabriolet]

Can anyone who has ever gotten copies of Model A drawings answer this question? When you make a copy of the drawings is there something you have to sign or do they make it known that the drawings are copyrighted? Are there limitations set as to what you can do with the copies? Can you sell them or use them to make parts for resale?

I have copies of the drawings for most of the wood for my Cabriolet, but I am not sure if I can share these legally.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Yes they are copyrighted, and No we really are not supposed to be posting them here or anywhere else unless we have paid the commercial fee. I paid $500 for that privilege once and had to state exactly what my purpose/use was.

[700rpm]

You would have to check to see if your material copyrights were renewed at any time in the last 84 years. (Probably only Ford knows this). Walt Disney Corp. successfully got the copyright laws changed a few years back so that everything is now copyright protected for 78 years. This is in direct opposition to what the founding fathers intended. They undertstood that commerce and creativity in general would be more robust if copyrights expired in a timely manner. It was established at 28 years in the beginning, but Disney wanted to protect their ownership of Mickey Mouse, and then corporations in general got more greedy and there you are. I am not making this up.

[John LaVoy]

You would be surprised or maybe not, what all Ford has protected. This is down to the silhouette of the cars. They only go after people using the images and name for profit most of the time. I met with Ford several years ago and worked out the use of all the Ford information for the Model A Times.

[newshirt]

The doctrine of fair use allows you to use small portions without acquiring permission.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use

[Mike V. Florida]

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Copyrights, fair use, protected, it's a real complex issue the I'm sure even two different lawyers would have a hard time agreeing.

Remembering that the drawings belong to Ford, making money off of them I think we can agree would be wrong all the time. Fuzzy areas would be if you used them to make part for a profit or even giving them away knowing that someone else would make a profit might get you in trouble.

To publish them as an answer to "how was this joint made" I would hope would be alright.

If you are a commercial entity such as Brent, things are worse because he does make money on the information he received from the drawings but on the actual drawings.

I would hope that the if one of us were to be sued by Ford for posting information the judge would look at our intent.

Years ago a bunch of vendors were asked by Ford to pay a royalty for the use of their part numbers or discontinue there use. The little guy would go broke defending himself even though there was a precedent case where one company sued another for the use of a part numbering scheme that the series of number 1000, 2000, 3000, described a family of parts. Yes just like the "copyrighted" Ford numbering system.

Are you willing to roll the dice?

[700rpm]

Sometimes it's better to ask forgiveness than to ask permission. If somebody posts something here for information only, I think that would fall under fair use, and therefore no foul, as long as there was no monetary gain by the poster. I'm not an attorney, but I did often come across this question in my profession before I retired, and that was usually the gist of the advice I received from consul. It is highly unlikely that Ford would prosecute any postings here. If anything, and it would be a long shot, Ryan might get a warning letter; but, as with YouTube, identifying the copyright owner would probably take care of the problem.

[Bob from Northport]

To ask a question- How does one access the Ford archives and look for a dimension??

[Fred K-OR]

Originally Posted by Bob from Northport

To ask a question- How does one access the Ford archives and look for a dimension??

That is a good question Bob. Thanks for asking.

[Mike V. Florida]

You contact the Ford Benson research center

[30ccpickup]

Is it the drawing or the information that is copy righted, or both? As a research projected would I (or one of my students) be able to recreate them and share?

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by 30ccpickup

Is it the drawing or the information that is copy righted, or both? As a research projected would I (or one of my students) be able to recreate them and share?

I went to the Research Center in person 3 times and bought some prints. The worker told me these were for my personal use and not to be copied for resale. Classroom and teaching use was OK.

[RonC]

Wasn't a complete set of drawings and engineering records on microfilm donated to MAFFI in the early 90's?

[BCCHOPIT]

I would think the drawing of the car would be ok
If you don't use the ford logo
And if that doesn't fly just change one part of the
Drawing
PS
Don't call me for bail

[RonC]

Maybe you could redraw it with all the information like the floorboard drawings?

[bogiediver]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

... for my personal use and not to be copied for resale. ...

This is the key to copyright use restriction...

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Bob from Northport

To ask a question- How does one access the Ford archives and look for a dimension??

Originally Posted by Fred K-OR

That is a good question Bob. Thanks for asking.

My personal opinion is someone like Will Cronkrite needs to answer that because he has spend an inordinate amount of time there doing research.

In a nutshell what I have learned is you initially must have a part number to find an Assembly Drawing. Those generally do not have any dimensions on them but they do have sub-component part rawn which will usually have that components part number. Then it really is not good enough just to find the drawing because you need to know specifically what date of vehicle you are working on. For example, fenders have very slight changes throughout the months of production where hole sizes and locations were altered between months. In other words, someone could look up floorboards and say "Oh, that is the thickness and dimensions." yet depending on the year & month, they were different amd those numbers may not apply to your vehicle. Therefore my point is you really cannot accurately go in, ask for a print and walk out 10 minutes later having what you need. It takes a lot of time looking at Engineering Releases along with Sub-Assembly drawings before someone can determine what is accurate. Hopefully Will can come along and add his opinion.

[denis4x4]

Just so happened that this was in the Detroit paper this morning:

FEBRUARY 14, 2012
Chinese truck imitates Ford F-150
BY SERENA MARIA DANIELS / THE DETROIT NEWS
It looks like a Ford F-150, right down to the iconic blue oval.

But inside the emblem is not the classic Ford script. Instead it's the three-letter-brand of a Chinese automaker that has borrowed many of the F-150's details — the hood contours, rectangular grille and extended cab — to emulate the most popular vehicle in America. The JAC 4R3 is set to launch in April during the 2012 Beijing International Automotive Exhibition.

Ford is investigating what to do about this apparent knockoff."We're aware of it and we're investigating. We're just trying to get an idea of what's going on with the vehicle and haven't decided what our next steps might be," said Mike Levine, a Ford Motor Co. spokesman. "We don't know if it would be legal action; we're just investigating our next steps."

The look-alike truck, built by Shanghai-based Jianghuai Automobile Co. — JAC — is the latest potential skirmish that Ford is facing with its flagship pickup. Last year, Ferrari was forced to change the name of F-150 sports car when it settled a lawsuit filed by the Dearborn automaker.

Levine became aware of the so-called Chinese F-150 in late January when he read a story published by the auto blog CarNewsChina.com. The site posted photographs of a truck with a striking resemblance to the F-150, though appearing a bit smaller in size.

The JAC company website also shows photos of one of its pickups whose headlight housings and grille are shaped more like a Chevrolet Colorado's.

Legally, Ford may have a difficult time winning any damages against the state-owned carmaker, experts say.

"Suing in China is a rather daunting procedure," said Jim Hall of 2953 Analytics LLP. "It's difficult to say what's going to happen when talking about copyright problems."

Ford would likely have to file a lawsuit against the Chinese government, which may or may not hear the case, Hall said.

Whether government-owned or private, Chinese automakers employ thousands of workers and serve as economic anchors within their communities, said Ken Duck, U.S. partner for Boss & Young, a Shanghai-based law practice. Duck specializes in cross-border transactional work. "Social stability within the local government or the loss of social stability is a huge concern in terms of employment and housing issues," said Duck, whose office is based in Troy. "It's really a macro issue. Anything potentially destabilizing to the community would be a factor in (a judge's) thinking."

Adopting designs common

Adopting popular auto designs is not uncommon among Chinese automakers, though cloning of American autos is, experts say. JAC and other Chinese automakers more commonly borrow the looks of Japanese Toyotas and Hondas.

"They come from a culture where imitation is perfectly acceptable. Product development there is not seen as a creative process, it's seen as a repetitive one," Hall said.

Tycho de Feyter, owner and senior editor of the Beijing-based CarNewsChina.com, said in an email response to questions from The Detroit News that cloning is very common at Chinese automakers, especially the smaller ones.

JAC's version of the F-150 may have the design of a Ford but the difference comes when one lifts the hood, Hall said.

"What they're doing is splitting the DNA of the truck," Hall said. "But I suspect that mechanically, it's very far removed from the Ford F-series."

Indeed, the 2.8-liter 4-cylinder diesel engine of the JAC is decidedly smaller than the F-150's 3.5 liter V-6.

Ford introduced the F-150 to the U.S. market in 1975. The truck has remained a best-seller here. Outside of North America, parts of South America and in the Persian Gulf region, consumers tend to either be priced out of full-size trucks that range in price from just under $22,000 to more than $47,000; roads in many of the countries have trouble handling full-size trucks. Ford F-150s aren't sold in China.

JAC has dealers in most parts of the world: the Middle East, Russia, South America, Mexico, Africa and Eastern Europe. The Chinese automaker does not sell in the United States.

Tolerance for fakes waning

Chinese automakers are now hiring Western designers. And companies like Chery International and Geely International Corp. are building their own unique designs, de Feyter said.

This comes as the public's tolerance toward fakes in China seems to be shrinking.

"The Chinese press' attitude to clones is … changing fast," de Feyter said. "In the early days, like five years ago, (the) Chinese press sort of liked it when another clone came to the market, 'China fights Japan, ha ha!,' in that fashion. Nowadays however, the press has become very critical of companies that clone foreign cars."

But for Ford workers like Nick Kottalis, president and chairman of the United Auto Workers local at the Dearborn Truck Plant, the fake F-150 — even if it is not sold on American soil — is disturbing.

"It's very upsetting that they would take our blue oval and try to emulate it," said Kottalis."To have someone copy our product, in my opinion, it's a slap in the face."

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[MrTube]

I don't understand why we import tons of stuff from a country who refuses to work with us in any way.

They refuse to import anything from us and they refuse to respect our laws. Its a completely uneven playing field and its killing us.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by MrTube

I don't understand why we import tons of stuff from a country who refuses to work with us in any way.

They refuse to import anything from us and they refuse to respect our laws. Its a completely uneven playing field and its killing us.

I agree and am now looking at the labels to see where the product is made. I'd like to buy US made products, but it's hard to do on many things.

That's why I like swap meets, second hand stores, and garage sales. The other day I bought a Huot 29 piece drill bit set that looks NOS for $12. It's marked "MADE IN ST. PAUL".

[dumb person]

Originally Posted by MrTube

I don't understand why we import tons of stuff from a country who refuses to work with us in any way.

They refuse to import anything from us and they refuse to respect our laws. Its a completely uneven playing field and its killing us.

Indeed. they used to make things on my country too but not any more. Tried to buy a padlock the other month, no luck. All made in china or no country of origin listed. But i did see one made in mexico for $120. Couldn't afford it.

[Gary Karr]

Now some items are even labeled "Made in PRC." Nice try! Wasn't it just a couple of years back that we refered to them as Communist China? Seems as they're now our buddies since the US has borrowed so much money from them....Enough of my rant!

[CarlG]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

... It's marked "MADE IN ST. PAUL".

For someone that lives in Mpls, I thought St Paul WAS a foreign country!