Substitute Tranny fluid

[mtnmice]

It turns out that I MUST take the 30 Coupe out this afternoon (long embarassing story) and I don't have any 600 wt at hand. For a ten mile trip what would be best, GO 80/90 or STP or something else that can be found at Auto Zone/Wally World?

Dementia is a terrible thing.....

[kwisor]

hello
i have a 30 tudor i use lucas heavy duty oil stablizar in tranny and the wine is less and shifts just fine no problems
kevin
1930 model a tudor
1923 model t roadster p/u

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Your 80/90 is going to be fine for that short of a trip. The heavier weight lube just aides in shifting and quieting of the gears along with being slower to leak. Enjoy your trip!

[ford3]

use 140w gear oil and a can of stp, will work
xlnt and no need to change it

[Jim Brierley]

Any brand modern oil, 85-90 wt. or even 140. 600 was state of the art in '28, not now but gear metal is the same or very similar, why stick with obsolete oils??? Don't use straight STP, it is not a lubricant.

[ford3]

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stp is not a lubricant, its an oil inhancer, makes oil much slipperer and will not be scrubbed off, so many guys dont read the whole post, i never said to use straight stp

[V4F]

lucas heavy duty oil stablizar + power punch . good to go !!!!!!!!!

[Patrick L.]

As the fellas said, 90 wgt will be fine, 140 wgt even better. Please, don't near that Lucas stabilizer crap.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

[QUOTE=mtnmice;627155]It turns out that I MUST take the 30 Coupe out this afternoon (long embarassing story) and I don't have any 600 wt at hand. For a ten mile trip what would be best, GO 80/90 or STP or something else that can be found at Auto Zone/Wally World?

Dementia is a terrible thing.....YES, and our vocabulary doesn't contain sufficient words to completely describe it. "ROBBERY" is fairly good. Bill W.

[mtnmice]

Thanks for the helpful words, guys. The problem self solved as it turned out that I didn't have to roll the Coupe after all. Tomorrow a call to Davin at Smith and Jones and I will have the 600 wt by Tuesday afternoon mail. Gotta love em.

[Jim/GA]

Originally Posted by Jim Brierley

Any brand modern oil, 85-90 wt. or even 140. 600 was state of the art in '28, not now but gear metal is the same or very similar, why stick with obsolete oils??? Don't use straight STP, it is not a lubricant.

Jim, gear design is different today. Pressure on gear face surfaces is high in the stock Model A. That's why they used the 600W lube.

[ford3]

Jim/TX, this is one instance i strongly disagree with you, there in no place where more pressure is applied to gears as in a diesel truck hauling 80,000#, and they use 140w in trans and rear end, and they run over a million miles with minimum of wear, 600w oil is old school, 85 yrs out of date

[Joe K]

Gosh. I will NOT admit to using 100 percent STP in my transmission!

Joe K

[Purdy Swoft]

I think what started the thing with STP as a gear lube was when the MARC technical director stated that he used straight STP as a steering and gear lube. I tried it in my 31 tudor and it worked good for several years. I noticed that my other model A's with the gear lube that Bratton's and Snyders sells shifted way easier and quicker. When I tried to drain the transmission, the STP wouldn't drain out and I ended up having to use a heat gun and heat the transmission case to get most of it out. Never again will I use straight STP as a gear lube. That said, a person learns best from their mistakes. I don't know about whether there is more strain on the model A gears than modern cars but I used 90-140 or whatever gear lube that was available at local service stations through the seventies and the model A gears shifted good. I have had transmissions fail in the past but none had been overhauled with new bearings. Back then, if they didn't jump out of gear I just run them until they failed.

[garyaodell]

Try Amsoil 240 wt, very close to 600wt in viscosity and makes the transmission shift easy

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

A friend's Model A has a '39 V-8 trans, he FILLED it with STP! It was TOO slippery for the synchro braking rings & totally foiled the synchro action & it shifted like a stock Model A. Took him forever, with the trans top off, to WASH all that CRAP out using solvent/gasoline/and even lacquer thinner, then it took even more driving for the synchros to SLOWLY begin to do their job again. I HOPE NO ONE EVEN THINKS ABOUT USING STRAIGHT STP!!! It ain't a gear oil, it's just some sort of slippery booster??? My thought is, as an additive to motor oil, it CLINGS well & helps on a dry bearing situation on start up. Don't put too much, as Model A's motors are primarily GRAVITY lubricated. I've used it at half recommended amounts with multigrade oils. With straight30 weight, I think it would be too thick to flow well! A fair rate of flow is necessary to keep bearings cool.(But what do I know?)
If I live long enough, I will build an oil cooler pan for my "A" engine. A friend, in the '50's built one for his Flathead V8 powered "Hardtop" oval track car. Drilled 5 or 6 holes in the front & back of the lower extremity of the pan to accept lengths of 1/2" copper tubing with the front of each flared out quite large. Then he had a radiator shop guy silver solder them in! He had an engine oil temp guage & it did make quite a difference in oil temperature. Bill W. (The Dog wasn't around then, so he can't back me up on this!)

[Keith True]

I've used barrels of 80-90 gear oil in bulldozers.All straight cut gears.I know hypoid is supposed to be used with spiral cut gears,but I have an AC HD 11 bulldozer that specifies hypoid for the bull gears in the final drives.Those gears are 4 inches wide.A few years ago I wanted to get the odd mixtures out of my A's,so when I parked them for the winter I took the drain plugs out.In the spring I went to refill them and found I was out of 240 wt oil.I put 90 wt in planning to drain and refill,but I've never gotten around to it.They do weep more though with it.Shifting isn't a problem,although on the worn out one I have to be careful when it gets hot.Todays junkiest gear oils are better than the good oils of the old days.At least that's what the Shell rep told me.

[700rpm]

Ford specs said 600W. It's available, so that's what I use. I trust Ford's engineers. If 600W wasn't available, then I'd have to make some other choice; but since it is, my choice is easy.

[ford3]

the ford specs are 80 yrs old, any gear old now is 500% better than any oil back then, ever ask why ford used 600w? the answer is because thats all he had, he also used non detergent oil, and look how that worked out, just because ford specs from 80 years ago say use some thing doesnt mean they are the best, just what was best then, think about it

[spdway1]

<------Helper Here, He had me buy this??? Not much noise...

[Mitch//pa]

brattons catalogue calls it 140 sae , 600w is just the name

[Keith True]

Another thing a lot of people don't realize,is that the 600W spec is NOT a weight spec.It is not 600 weight.It could just as well been 600Z.It was just a letter designation for the oil.The Shell rep told me that spec is somewhere around 200 weight,but he also told me that no one really knows.He said the tech guys will never commit to a number,as some of the old specs seem kind of murky.The tallow was different in different parts of the country,and was different depending on the kind of animals it was rendered from.

[ford3]

LOL, i wonder at judged meets a judge would actually crawl under a car to see if the owner was actually running 600w gear oil?, thats the only reason to use that stuff, so as not to lose judging points

[Jim/GA]

Originally Posted by Keith True

Another thing a lot of people don't realize,is that the 600W spec is NOT a weight spec.It is not 600 weight.It could just as well been 600Z.It was just a letter designation for the oil.The Shell rep told me that spec is somewhere around 200 weight,but he also told me that no one really knows.He said the tech guys will never commit to a number,as some of the old specs seem kind of murky.The tallow was different in different parts of the country,and was different depending on the kind of animals it was rendered from.

Your Shell rep may not know what the specs of 600W are, but Mobil Oil seems to know (since they are the originators of it):

http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lub...nder_Oils.aspx

Mac's Antique Auto Parts has told the Model T club guys that they sell the Mobil Super Cylinder oil as their 600W oil:
http://www.modelt.org/index.php?view...kfaq&Itemid=34

This chart
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/viscosity-charts/
can help you figure out the overlap between 600W oil (ISO 460, a narrow viscosity band) and SAE 140W gear oil (a much broader viscosity band).

Remember the discussion about engine oil viscosities a few weeks ago? SAE viscosity numbers represent a band, not a fixed point, as the chart shows.

[Paul from Maine]

Okay, now I'll make a few people cringe! My worn out tranny leaked oil faster than I could pour it in so I removed the shift tower and filled it with wheel bearing grease and STP. Shifts like a dream now, no need to double clutch and no dripping or leaks. Quiet, too! Motor was rebuilt 5,000 miles ago and tranny is working fine. When it fails, I'll have that rebuilt too or I'll buy a Mitchell! Till then, wheel bearing gease and STP suits me fine!

[700rpm]

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Originally Posted by ford3

just because ford specs from 80 years ago say use some thing doesnt mean they are the best

And likewise, just because it's new doesn't necessarily mean it's better.

[ford3]

LOL, maybe not, but even ford seen the lite and got rid of the 600w and started using 90 and 140 w in his trans and rear ends, that alone has to count for some thing LOL

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

[QUOTE=ford3;627461]the ford specs are 80 yrs old, any gear old now is 500% better than any oil back then, ever ask why ford used 600w? the answer is because thats all he had, he also used non detergent oil, and look how that worked out, just because ford specs from 80 years ago say use some thing doesnt mean they are the best, just what was best then, think about it-----You're a man of great common sense, some still use Vaseline on dist. cam lobes 'cause Henry said so! PSHAW! It rubs right off. Use good Delco dist. cam lube, it stays put & also lubes speedo cables well. If Henry were here & restored an "A" I'm sure he would use modern lubricants, oils, a thermostat, an alternator, leakless waterpump, & with my recommendation, probably those "DREADED FAM's"
Usually when I blow off like this, some respond as if I offended GOD! Point being, in the "old days" they recommended the best that they had at that time. Shucks, if Henry lived next door, we could be friends, I'd even pass him my hose, so he could wash his "A" off of MY water meter & he'd probably spray my driveway joints with HIS Roundup! Bill W.

[spdway1]

Originally Posted by Paul from Maine

Okay, now I'll make a few people cringe! My worn out tranny leaked oil faster than I could pour it in so I removed the shift tower and filled it with wheel bearing grease and STP. Shifts like a dream now, no need to double clutch and no dripping or leaks. Quiet, too! Motor was rebuilt 5,000 miles ago and tranny is working fine. When it fails, I'll have that rebuilt too or I'll buy a Mitchell! Till then, wheel bearing gease and STP suits me fine!

Paul, That is Wicked Cool!

[Terry, NJ]

I don't like anythuing I have to order and wait for days anticipating it's arrival. So, when I was "Refreshing" my 30 coupe, I used "of the shelf" stuff. Just prior we were have this "Discussion" about Trans oils. "What? Another discussion about Trans oil? It must be Thursday!" Anyway, the star of that show was "Lucas Hub Oil" that's used in the wheel hubs of very large trucks. Someone had what he considered great luck with Lucas Hub oil and was sharing the news and he listed all of it's positive qualities. The reaction can be divided in three ways; Those who hunger for new products and liked it or some other products, These who hated it and stuck with the stuff Henry called for, Those who were on the fence. I tried to find Lucas Hub Oil and couldn't locate and so I tried Lucas Oil Stabilizer and STP and it seems to work fine.
Terry

[Chris in WNC]

if STP is not a lubricant, it can certainly pass for one around here.

I've run it in transmission, differential and steering box ever since reading Roger Kauffman's recommendation- tens of thousands of miles over the years.

transmissions shift just fine and unlike Purdy I have no trouble draining it out. seems to thin out in use and drains right out like any other gear oil......

[BarracudaBoy]

Originally Posted by spdway1

<------helper here, he had me buy this??? Not much noise...

+1 :d

[Joe K]

Originally Posted by Chris in WNC

transmissions shift just fine and unlike Purdy I have no trouble draining it out. seems to thin out in use and drains right out like any other gear oil......

Like the real 600W, it helps if the transmission has been used recently and is still warm.

I can't say I've ever changed it though. It works! No longer amber but a nice dull yellow/blue on the finger.

Gosh dern it. I just unhinged part of the argument FOR. If you want to and enjoy changing the transmission oil use the traditional 600W.

Joe K

[Purdy Swoft]

Hey Joe, the only time that I have ever changed gear oil in anything was the time that I tried to get the STP out of my 31 sedan. Oh yeah, I like your new avatar, cool!!

Purdy

[MikeK]

I always get a big laugh when I hear "STP is not a lubricant". If you look at the MSDS you will see it is mostly OIL with a small percentage of additives. MSDS LINK The "not a lubricant' statement is an old Andy Granatelli advertising claim to make you think you were buying a bottle full of additives. In fact you got mostly thick oil with a tiny % of additives.

My really old glass tube and steel ball viscosity rig has shown STP Hi-Mileage formulation to be about 4,700 SUS @ 100F. That's roughly iso 680 or thicker.

The STP Hi-Mileage stuff contains mostly iso 680 or greater OIL with a small % of zinc compounds (ZDDP) and a tackifier. I've run it straight in my 40B tranny for years.

[Louis]

Originally Posted by Paul from Maine

Okay, now I'll make a few people cringe! My worn out tranny leaked oil faster than I could pour it in so I removed the shift tower and filled it with wheel bearing grease and STP. Shifts like a dream now, no need to double clutch and no dripping or leaks. Quiet, too! Motor was rebuilt 5,000 miles ago and tranny is working fine. When it fails, I'll have that rebuilt too or I'll buy a Mitchell! Till then, wheel bearing gease and STP suits me fine!

I did the same thing to my steering gear box over 5 years ago, steers fine and no leaks, nothing wrong with wheel bearing grease and STP.

[Joe K]

Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft

Hey Joe, the only time that I have ever changed gear oil in anything was the time that I tried to get the STP out of my 31 sedan. Oh yeah, I like your new avatar, cool!!

Purdy

I think we hear a whole bunch of different opinions regarding WHAT WORKS FOR ME. With the emphasis on ME.

However, each ME has a slightly different bore and stroke - not literally but figuratively.

Funny, over at Harry's Old Engine Board where I am on occasion a contributor, I opined on using STP as a substitute for 600W steam oil (this the same stuff as the Model A stuff - back then.)

Gosh you could have heard the old geezers clearing their throats all the way over the Internet.

"NO steam engineer worth his salt would EVER use STP in a displacement lubricator."

Funny, I have been able to make a respectable living doing EXACTLY that for nearly the last 40 years. (so phooey on dems guys and I still occasionally spread the heathen gospel over at Harry's board.)

I do think any opinion one has to take with a grain of salt. Including one's own. Each of us have our own conceptions and MISconceptions about what either STP or 600W oil is. Or what it does. Or how long it lasts. Or how easily it is changed.

I have heard and I think I agree that 600W even in the day came in MANY formulations and degrees of viscosity depending on the steam engine it was to be used on. I think it was Steam Engine Principle and Practices by Croft which outlines at least six different manufacturers and for each at least a couple of different applications/grades, and maybe more. Now today, we have a lot less choices - and I imagine the manufacturers are likely to have modified their lubricants to better serve today's market. So while the oils are likely better, they ain't even what they were then.

So not to give offense but send everyone away with a smile - if it works for you - THEN BY ALL MEANS USE IT.

Just don't put a handful of sawdust into the transmission like I found my pickup had when I first opened it. It ran and shifted REAL smooth - but there was this constant background odor of a cedar planing mill in the cab. And shortly afterwards the noise of the same planing mill from the transmission.

Joe K

Edit: and yes the Avatar is the Gordon Smith Compressor as it is found today. Still a project in waiting. In some ways I wish I still had the original 1930 cowl, wheels, compressor tank of the original setup - but alas these got traded off to someone doing a 1930 roadster - and another doing up a Gordon Smith factory setup.

But this stationary unit will serve. I plan to set it up remote from the garage in a large doghouse and run it only when I sandblast.

Yes, in many ways more interesting...

[Lowell Fast]

http://www.agrisupply.com/tractor-fl...pment/p/72451/

How about the use of "tractor fluids" as above. (made for older tractors)? May not have all the sulfur that attacks old brasses.

[rocket1]

I used STP in the A engine for years,dropped the pan years later and found globs of jelly like substance,seems to congeal in time.

[Doug in NJ]

Originally Posted by ford3

stp is not a lubricant, its an oil inhancer, makes oil much slipperer and will not be scrubbed off, so many guys dont read the whole post, i never said to use straight stp

Isn't "making things slippery" pretty much the definition of a lubricant?

Doug

[Harley03joe]

I Use This From Mike's

A600W
Model Year: 1928 - 1931
Price: $9.95

"Extra heavy oil for the rear end (1 1/2 pints), transmission (1 pint) & steering box (7 3/4 oz). Comes with pour spout. Can Not Be Shipped By Air

[Harley03joe]

I Use This In My Eng.

SAE ND 30
Model Year: 1928 - 1931
UOM: Quart
Quantity in Basket: None
Retail Price: $5.99

This oil has been specially designed for antique and classic vehicles, reguiring the original formula formula with ZDDP additive. Also comes with a window decal so you can keep track of your oil changes. Sorry, no extra discount on this item!! Can Not Be Shipped By Air.

[Cool Hand Lurker]

Here is something I read recently about hypoid gear oils.
Hypoid gear oils contain extreme pressure (EP) and antiwear (AW) additives to cope with the sliding action of hypoid bevel gears.
EP additives which contain phosphorous/sulfurous compounds are corrosive to yellow metals such as the copper and/or brass used in bushings and synchronizers; the GL1 class of gear oils does not contain any EP additives and thus finds use in applications which contain parts made of yellow metals.