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09-13-2020, 08:53 AM | #1 |
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Crank pulley bolt...Lost again!!
So this is the second time my crank pulley bolt came loose and disappeared onto the road. The first time it happened, I just figured I didn't tighten it enough. I installed a new bolt, torqued it to 50lbs. with red lock-tite and it came off this morning. This is a blower motor so the crank bolt and pulley are not stock, but I'm not sure if that has anything to do with it.
Looking for an explanation. Thanks Joe |
09-13-2020, 08:58 AM | #2 |
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Re: Crank pulley bolt...Lost again!!
Gremlins,
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09-13-2020, 09:26 AM | #3 |
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Re: Crank pulley bolt...Lost again!!
Joe could you drill the shank and use a castle nut, You got me curious.
Get one of those remote cameras and possibly video that area by the pulley and see what is going on while driving, good luck and let us know how you make out. |
09-13-2020, 10:03 AM | #4 |
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Re: Crank pulley bolt...Lost again!!
Are you torquing bolt to specs? Are the threads worn? Is there any type of lock washer or "spring washer" you could use with the bolt.
Here's a very good link to washers that might solve your problem. Lots of great information. https://www.google.com/search?q=spec...hrome&ie=UTF-8 Read this: https://vention.io/blogs/best-anti-v...-fasteners-178 Read about "Smart Bolts". http://www.smartbolts.com/insights/l...nt%20loosening. First thing I would do is try a brand new Grade 8 bolt. What engine is in your car? Last edited by 19Fordy; 09-13-2020 at 10:09 AM. |
09-13-2020, 10:20 AM | #5 | |
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Re: Crank pulley bolt...Lost again!!
Quote:
I was using grade 8 bolts, but no lock washer, just some red lock-tite. Engine is a blown 1950 8BA. Thanks Joe |
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09-13-2020, 10:23 AM | #6 | |
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Re: Crank pulley bolt...Lost again!!
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Quote:
Thanks! Joe |
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09-13-2020, 10:24 AM | #7 |
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Re: Crank pulley bolt...Lost again!!
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09-13-2020, 10:40 AM | #8 |
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Re: Crank pulley bolt...Lost again!!
I would speak with Loctite on their 800 number and get it from the people that know. The red is basically bomb proof.
R |
09-13-2020, 10:46 AM | #9 |
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Re: Crank pulley bolt...Lost again!!
Just a thought, how tight is the hub and pulley onto the crank? with the added load of the blower and if it's not a tight enough fit it might cause some wobbling and loosening of the bolt that holds it in place.
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09-13-2020, 10:55 AM | #10 |
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Re: Crank pulley bolt...Lost again!!
Lets see some pictures of the crank pulley with out the bolt and spring washer.
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09-13-2020, 10:58 AM | #11 |
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Re: Crank pulley bolt...Lost again!!
I was thinking the same as earlyride, and perhaps the 2 surfaces (crank side and bolt side) of the pulley are not exactly 90 degrees from the centerline which would permit a wobble.
Also, did you clean the internal threads of the crank with Brakecleen or lacquer thinner and blow it out before using the locktite? |
09-13-2020, 11:12 AM | #12 |
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Re: Crank pulley bolt...Lost again!!
Joe in the past when I have experienced the exact same issue as yours even with the blower belt helping the dampening. The problem was due to a balance issue which turned out to be the flywheel area. Even red locktite would not help. I would suggest try green locktite its a lot stronger than red if the bolt still comes loose after going to green then checking the bolt regularly to be sure its tight would at least keep the bolt in place and not on the road someplace.
Ronnieroadster
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09-13-2020, 11:25 AM | #13 |
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Re: Crank pulley bolt...Lost again!!
Hi Joe, appears to be not enough torque on the bolt, this will cause your problem. If it doesn't get enough torque it will eventually work its way out!
What happens is having the correct "tension" on the bolt keeps it in place! To add to the problem, the OEM dampers are NOT a press fit to begin with, this makes the torque number even more important. Thanks, Gary in N.Y. P.S. It's a bit ironic but Pontiac builds share the same characteristics, the OEM damper has always been a "slip-fit", getting the damper bolt up to torque does take a bit of doing! I don't have the OEM torque handy for the Flathead but the Pontiacs must get a minimum of 150# (160# preferred) to do the job! Same size bolt/washer as the Flatheads, being 5/8-18 x 1.750" I believe?
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09-13-2020, 11:36 AM | #14 |
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Re: Crank pulley bolt...Lost again!!
The torque specifications on a grade 8 5/8-18 bolt is 240 ft-lbs dry and 180 ft-lbs lubed. So 50 is not even close. 50 ft-lbs is in the range of a 3/8 inch bolt.
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09-13-2020, 11:38 AM | #15 |
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Re: Crank pulley bolt...Lost again!!
It sounds like the torque you are using is too low. If the bolt is a 5/8"-18 and a grade 8 capscrew, the torque should be in the 235 lb-ft range, reference Craftsman generic torque table.
There is a lot of torsional vibration going through that joint to the crank pulleys. Increasing the grip length of the bolt will get more stretch in the bolt and resistance to loosening. You can increase the length by adding a thick wall spacer. I do not recommend using a lock washer, it is just another spring in the system. |
09-13-2020, 12:20 PM | #16 |
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Re: Crank pulley bolt...Lost again!!
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09-13-2020, 12:22 PM | #17 |
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Re: Crank pulley bolt...Lost again!!
It's a pretty snug fit as I remember it. I can pull the belts and check to see if my memory serves me right!
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09-13-2020, 12:23 PM | #18 |
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Re: Crank pulley bolt...Lost again!!
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09-13-2020, 12:23 PM | #19 |
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Re: Crank pulley bolt...Lost again!!
A steel bolt in a steel nut of suitable grade of steel will achieve the numbers quoted above, but as it is being screwed into a cast iron crank snout would a lower value be more appropriate? I am thinking 50 lbs sounds a bit low, though.
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09-13-2020, 12:24 PM | #20 | |
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Re: Crank pulley bolt...Lost again!!
Quote:
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09-13-2020, 12:26 PM | #21 | |
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Re: Crank pulley bolt...Lost again!!
Quote:
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09-13-2020, 12:32 PM | #22 | |
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Re: Crank pulley bolt...Lost again!!
Quote:
I was just going by the torque values I found here on the barn. I'm using grade 8 bolts so I can definitely crank it down. I think I'd like to try the Nord-Lock style washers, I don't think it could hurt for the $2.50 the set costs. It would be great if we could all agree on a torque value!! Anyone??!! Thanks, Joe Last edited by jrvariel48; 09-13-2020 at 12:32 PM. Reason: spelling |
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09-13-2020, 01:01 PM | #23 |
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Re: Crank pulley bolt...Lost again!!
Could there be a problem with the space between the pulley face and crank face? It's about a 3/16" recess.
Last edited by jrvariel48; 09-13-2020 at 01:03 PM. Reason: spelling |
09-13-2020, 02:18 PM | #24 |
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Re: Crank pulley bolt...Lost again!!
I think you should look at the run-out of the pulley, i.e the amount between minimum and maximum at a point on the pulley.
I'd pull the plugs and try to get a helper; or turn crank bolt manually as you watch; or make a starter switch to bump it (ignition off). If this static view isn't conclusive, I'd run it motor running through different RPMs with a helper and watch to see if you have dynamics of the pulley and/or crank snout vibrating from bending forces. Last edited by glennpm; 09-13-2020 at 02:34 PM. Reason: add dynamic test |
09-13-2020, 02:32 PM | #25 |
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Re: Crank pulley bolt...Lost again!!
I don't think the distance from front of hub to end of crank is a problem as long as it's sitting properly on the machined register of the pulley and crank.
Your washer is THICK, right? Like 3/8" or so? Joe Abbin recommends 130-145# of torque on the crank bolt, and that sounds about right. Terry
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09-13-2020, 03:35 PM | #26 |
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Re: Crank pulley bolt...Lost again!!
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The 5/8 size mentioned by others in this thread seems to small to me. Could it be a misprint? Look at what the 49-51 Merc repair manual says below.. FYI: In the 1949-51 Mercury Manual, on page 72 of Volume 1 it shows the crank pulley to crankshaft bolt to be 5/8-18 x 1 1/8 long and that it's tightened to 130 to 135 foot pounds for the 1949 and 1950 Merc and 45 to 55 foot pounds for the 1951 Merc. only. Clarification of this issue would be appreciated. Last edited by 19Fordy; 09-13-2020 at 08:18 PM. |
09-13-2020, 06:22 PM | #27 |
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Re: Crank pulley bolt...Lost again!!
Joe the washer under your bolt should sit on the inner lower surface of the hub assembly not on the face of the outer pulley which is a higher surface. The washer should be thick as mentioned above at least 3/8 inch and as large a diameter possible when sitting into that recess. As to the idea the torque needs to be extremely high heck the stock Flathead washer and bolt would never set at such high torque numbers the washer is to thin the bolt is mild steel and the thread is in a casting. Toque at 65 foot pounds is plenty thats all i ever use {on street engines and all out very fast engines} when the washer is thick enough and large enough in diameter to hold the pressure.
Ronnieroadster
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09-13-2020, 06:49 PM | #28 |
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Re: Crank pulley bolt...Lost again!!
65 may work fine, but all of the Ford spec's I'm seeing are around 130-140.
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09-14-2020, 03:03 AM | #29 |
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Re: Crank pulley bolt...Lost again!!
Here's an idea. As you have bolts nearby, why not make a plate with a hex hole in the middle that drops over the bolt head and then has the other bolts going through it to lock it in place? Or some other sort of tab washer type device, or even some locking wire attached to an adjacent bolt.
That said, a good bolt, a decent washer (turned up in a lathe as a custom job) and a spring washer ought to be all that is required. Just thinking out loud. Mart. |
09-14-2020, 08:30 AM | #30 |
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Re: Crank pulley bolt...Lost again!!
Zeke3 the pulley is longer then the end of the crankshaft.
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09-14-2020, 09:41 AM | #31 | |
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Re: Crank pulley bolt...Lost again!!
Quote:
The OEM Flathead washer measures .312" (thick) x 1.560" (O.D.) x .660" (hole size). The Pontiac washer measures .310" (thick) x 1.625" (O.D.) x .655" (hole size). The OEM (8BA) Flathead bolt measures 1.625" (O/A length) x 1.150" (UHL threaded) x .875" hex nut (.470" thick). The Pontiac bolt measures 2.000" (O/A length) x 1.600" (UHL threaded) x .937" hex nut (.400" thick). Thanks, Gary in N.Y. P.S. I know there's different opinions above on the torque for these size bolts but I definitely would want to at least be in the right neighborhood! For instance, if you back the torque way down your wheel lugnuts who do you blame when your wheels "fall-off"?? (More or less kidding here, maybe)
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09-14-2020, 10:10 AM | #32 |
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Re: Crank pulley bolt...Lost again!!
The picture shows the crank nose, and inner hub and the accessory pulley. I assume the slot in the inner hub is for the keyway and the inner hub is installed such that it is pressing on the oil slinger and crankshaft gear.
I would fill most of the gap between the nose of the crankshaft and the inner hub with a spacer, leaving the inner hub slightly higher than the spacer. Then use a thick washer, no larger than the outside diameter of the inner hub so it does not press on the accessory pulley, as Ronnie suggested. Also, a grade 5 capscrew will be perfectly adequate at 65 ft-lb torque. If that thing still falls out, I would safety wire it to one of the other bolts on the accessory pulley. |
09-14-2020, 04:18 PM | #33 |
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Re: Crank pulley bolt...Lost again!!
So I'm having my machinist make me a 3/8" thick washer at the proper diameter (1.750 OD) with a grade 8 bolt and the Nord-Lock system. I'll torque to 65-70 lbs and check it everytime I go for a ride. I also like the thought of tie wire and will do that if I find it loose again.
I appreciate all the input and will post the results! Thanks again to everyone! Joe |
09-14-2020, 04:23 PM | #34 |
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Re: Crank pulley bolt...Lost again!!
That will be a good bolt up. Do yourself a favor and drill the bolt for safety wire now. If you find it’s getting loose, tighten it up and wire it.
Glenn |
09-14-2020, 04:58 PM | #35 |
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Re: Crank pulley bolt...Lost again!!
And I would have to agree with the safety wire suggestions. .041 diameter SS wire will hold a lot if it's properly installed.
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09-15-2020, 03:29 AM | #36 |
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Re: Crank pulley bolt...Lost again!!
Looking at the pulley, I have three button head screws that I'll have to change to hex head to drill them for the safety wire.
I'll wire from crank bolt to one of the three bolts. Should I wire the remaining two bolts together? |
09-15-2020, 05:58 AM | #37 |
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Re: Crank pulley bolt...Lost again!!
It would be a good idea. If you don't want to use hex head bolts, maybe limited wrench clearance, use Allen head and drill those.
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09-15-2020, 01:23 PM | #38 |
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Re: Crank pulley bolt...Lost again!!
I would also use regular socket screws (drilled). Some info on button head screws: "Button head screws, set screws, and studs cannot be torqued like ordinary screws. These screws have a small contact area where the tool is applied compared to other kinds of head types (e.g. hex, socket, cap, Torx, etc.) Torque on these screws must be reduced. If this is not done, either the screw, the piece being fastened, or the tool will be damaged."
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