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Old 07-17-2020, 11:52 AM   #1
2935ford
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Default Rear Block Babbitt

Just wondering if this rear block babbitt looks ok with regards to wear and oil grooves?

Thanks
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Old 07-17-2020, 02:50 PM   #2
Kurt in NJ
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Default Re: Rear Block Babbitt

Post a picture of the cap too, the oil groove is not done like factory, but will function, how much bearing clearance?
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Old 07-17-2020, 03:36 PM   #3
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Default Re: Rear Block Babbitt

Clearance is not quite .0015. It has had a rebuild at some point but I do not know what went on.
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File Type: jpg rear main cap 001a.jpg (66.2 KB, 133 views)
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Old 07-17-2020, 04:19 PM   #4
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Default Re: Rear Block Babbitt

Looks great to me.
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Old 07-17-2020, 04:40 PM   #5
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Default Re: Rear Block Babbitt

^^^^
Thanks
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Old 07-17-2020, 04:55 PM   #6
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Default Re: Rear Block Babbitt

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So, here is my issue.
I have had a very bad leak at the rear. Thought at first the pan gasket but no. Then moved on to the rear seal. Picture shows the old and new rear seal. Removed the old and that is what the top looks like compared to the new.
Installed the new torqued to 80ft lbs and the crank locked up. Same shims as before.
Have now pulled the crank expecting to find some particles/debris at the top of the block seal cavity but found nothing.
It appears the crank end is jammed against the seal itself (second picture). You can see the shine (red area) left by just the few turns of the crank after loosening the bolts.
I realize any new part is never an original so I'm going to assume you need to file this area to stop this from happening?
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File Type: jpg rear main seal 002b.jpg (44.2 KB, 163 views)
File Type: jpg rear main seal 003b.jpg (80.8 KB, 181 views)
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Old 07-17-2020, 05:28 PM   #7
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Default Re: Rear Block Babbitt

Its not a seal only a baffle. Make sure it fully seated so ends are flush with block. Yes you can clearance it Check for excessive crank end play that will result in a leaky rear main
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Old 07-17-2020, 06:34 PM   #8
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Default Re: Rear Block Babbitt

jetmek
Thanks.
Ya, they call it seal......far from it!
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Old 07-17-2020, 09:24 PM   #9
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Default Re: Rear Block Babbitt

I do not understand the 2nd pic. If the cap is cocked as you show against the "seal" something is seriously wrong. I take it you know the pic is not a rear main cap? The oil groove is wrong, but will probably work for awhile anyway, the A is forgiving. Use search for the late Herm Kohnke posts. Artistry. Basically, a properly restored rear main will not leak more than a few drops. Get measuring instruments and prussian blue to trace the bind.
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Old 07-18-2020, 06:35 AM   #10
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Default Re: Rear Block Babbitt

PC/SR
Thanks for your reply.
If you mean the second picture of my posts is not a rear cap, sorry, yes it is.

You are correct there is something seriously wrong.
The post with the 2 pics shows the old seal on the bottom and new seal above. The pic to the right I propped the seal between two rod caps.

The babbitt in the rear main block oil groove has been cut wrong and another groove cut in an attempt to correct. I suppose this will work.

When seating the new seal in the block groove we had to file both ends of the seal flush to the block surface as the new seal was to long. This done we the place plastigauge on the crank, replaced the rear cap and torqued to 80 ft lbs. This gave us a reading within spec almost .0015”. This is when trying to turn the crank it was locked tight.
We then discovered the seal lip was in hard contact with the crank end behind the slinger.
So it will be necessary to reduce this area on the seal to correct this as shown with red in in post #6.
As mentioned, I bought this A as is and know nothing about its engine rebuild.
In this area where I live there is no one who does babbitt work.
I will check out Herm’s post.
Pictured below is the rear main cap.
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File Type: jpg rear main cap 001a.jpg (66.2 KB, 74 views)

Last edited by 2935ford; 07-18-2020 at 08:17 AM.
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Old 07-18-2020, 08:33 AM   #11
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Default Re: Rear Block Babbitt

What is Herm's post name?
Thanks
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Old 07-18-2020, 08:48 AM   #12
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Default Re: Rear Block Babbitt

Where the crank is rubbing the new slinger did the crank come in contact with the original one? How much end play do you have? Model A is .004-.006" if the babbitt was done correctly. Model A will leak with excessive end play and also if it can't breathe, If the oil filler cap has steel wool or something to restrict breathing it will come out rear main.


As an example I have enclosed two pictures of what the rear main do correctly should look like. Yours will also work as the cut the grooves by hand.

www.jandm-machine.com
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File Type: jpg IMG_5448 - Copy.JPG (49.2 KB, 93 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_3674.JPG (53.8 KB, 92 views)
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Old 07-18-2020, 09:26 AM   #13
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Default Re: Rear Block Babbitt

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2935ford View Post
What is Herm's post name?
Thanks

Kohnke Rebabbitting is user name

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/member.php?u=439

1. Click on statistics TAB in above link

2. Click on Find all posts by Kohnke Rebabbitting to get listing of links.



.

Last edited by Benson; 07-21-2020 at 12:38 PM.
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Old 07-18-2020, 09:41 AM   #14
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Default Re: Rear Block Babbitt

Herm Kohnke is gone...
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Old 07-18-2020, 10:36 AM   #15
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Default Re: Rear Block Babbitt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Shaft View Post
Herm Kohnke is gone...
Does anybody know what happened? It seemed quite sudden. Was it a heart attack? Or COVID-19? Other?
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Old 07-18-2020, 11:14 AM   #16
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Default Re: Rear Block Babbitt

J and M Machine, nice work there.
Thanks. Will check the end play. Other than the rear leak the engine ran strong and very quiet. Compression is excellent.

Benson, thank you.

It's too late to do anything about the oil grooves but they seem to work. The rear main was oily when we removed the cap so it's being fed Ok.
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Old 07-19-2020, 08:32 AM   #17
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Default Re: Rear Block Babbitt

Herm's posts should still be on here even though he is no longer with us. He would post on a lot of the questions about the main and rod bearings since that was his specialty.

If a person purchases new replacement parts for the bottom end, it would be a good idea to compare them with the part being replaced to see if dimensions match up fairly close. Those oil slinger inserts have to match the diameters in the cap. They really should be sized properly at manufacture but now days you just can't take that stuff for granted. Check everything before assembly.

The drain tube in the rear main cap has to be in good condition. If it's not right, they can leak. There is a reason that it's there and it has to be the right shape and length. Overfilling the oil sump can cause leaks as well. That oil groove could be lengthened but it would be tricky at this stage of the game. A lot of folks that do this stuff have the guide tools to cut those grooves. With no idea of which way it should go, it's common for them to end up like that one.

Last edited by rotorwrench; 07-19-2020 at 08:37 AM.
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Old 07-19-2020, 09:20 AM   #18
2935ford
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Default Re: Rear Block Babbitt

rotorwrench
thanks.

Sadly almost every part made these days is offshore and usually not good quality.
I try the best I can to use original parts.

There is a definite difference with the new seal and what was in there but they are dimension ally very close and with a little tweaking will work.

The oil tube was screwed in to far and that has been adjusted.
Not much I can do about the oil grooves. They are what they are. Oil is definitely getting to the rear main so I should be Ok.
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Old 07-20-2020, 11:05 AM   #19
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Default Re: Rear Block Babbitt

1. You say that you filed the ends of the seal (baffle) this should not be necessary.

2. The crank seems to be rubbing on the seal (baffle).

3. If it was necessary to file the ends of the seal (baffle) then that tells me that there is some foreign matter like melted babbitt from previous rebuild that was left in the groove that the seal (baffle) is installed into.

4. Remove seal (baffle) and look see if something is in the groove which is blocking seal from seating all the way into groove. Caution heating the cap or block to remove the obstruction might ruin the babbitt bearing.

5. Seal might be a reject part. Was the seal purchased from a legitimate dealer or did it come from Ebay or swap meet?


Sometimes a part is for sale on Ebay / swap because there is problem with it!




Quote:
Originally Posted by 2935ford View Post
PC/SR
Thanks for your reply.
If you mean the second picture of my posts is not a rear cap, sorry, yes it is.

You are correct there is something seriously wrong.
The post with the 2 pics shows the old seal on the bottom and new seal above. The pic to the right I propped the seal between two rod caps.

The babbitt in the rear main block oil groove has been cut wrong and another groove cut in an attempt to correct. I suppose this will work.

When seating the new seal in the block groove we had to file both ends of the seal flush to the block surface as the new seal was to long. This done we the place plastigauge on the crank, replaced the rear cap and torqued to 80 ft lbs. This gave us a reading within spec almost .0015”. This is when trying to turn the crank it was locked tight.
We then discovered the seal lip was in hard contact with the crank end behind the slinger.
So it will be necessary to reduce this area on the seal to correct this as shown with red in in post #6.
As mentioned, I bought this A as is and know nothing about its engine rebuild.
In this area where I live there is no one who does babbitt work.
I will check out Herm’s post.
Pictured below is the rear main cap.

Last edited by Benson; 07-21-2020 at 07:18 AM.
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Old 07-21-2020, 09:40 AM   #20
2935ford
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Default Re: Rear Block Babbitt

Benson Thank you.

The seal (baffle) was sourced from a Model A parts dealer in Ontario and is currently the replacement part that most or all dealers are selling. He has been in business many years.
I have read and been told the new seals (baffles) may be too long and will/may need filling. Sadly these days, as I have mentioned, re pop parts are not the exact copy of originals.
The block groove is clear and clean no obstruction.
So, reducing the surface material on the seal (baffle) will be necessary for the crank to rotate properly.
I have ordered 2 more and will see if there is any difference from one to the other.
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