The Ford Barn

12secvx · 03-10-2016, 09:09 PM

Long story short I was disassembling a good used running 30 A motor to reseal and do a cheap freshen up and use while waiting for my other motor to get done at the machine shop. And I was knocking the drive gear pin out with a drift punch and somehow busted a chunk out of the block!!! I was upset but now that I calmed down I'm thinking of ways to easily fix it. I thought I would ask your opinions. I do have the pieces that broke off.

12secvx · 03-10-2016, 09:10 PM

And this one too

12secvx · 03-10-2016, 09:47 PM

Yes it is a model A engine. And the drive pin I was trying to remove was the one that hold the top thrust collar on the oil pump/camshaft drive gear. I feel silly enough and guess I should of just figured it out on my own thanks.

Rowdy · 03-10-2016, 09:47 PM

Vince, I beleive he is referring to the distributor drive and we are looking down at the top of the oil pump shaft in the second picture. I am not sure how you would break this while trying to reseal an engine. Rod

12secvx · 03-10-2016, 09:57 PM

The drive gear was very worn and I thought I would replace it with a new one that I had. I then found I couldn't remove it unless I removed the upper collar. I didn't want to scrap a good block with good Babbitts if I could save it some how. Sorry for the poor description but rod is correct about the area that is damaged in the pictures.

12secvx · 03-10-2016, 10:00 PM

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Fill it with Magna Steel and take my chances are my thoughts.

Big hammer · 03-10-2016, 10:02 PM

Is that inside the valve chamber? Picture taken with a phone

1955cj5 · 03-10-2016, 10:04 PM

If it makes you feel any better based on the crud in the center main oil tube that engine was not long for this world anyway...

To bad you broke the block.

You already learned that the drive gear assembly comes out easily and then you drive the pin out, if needed....

12secvx · 03-10-2016, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1955cj5

If it makes you feel any better based on the crud in the center main oil tube that engine was not long for this world anyway...

To bad you broke the block.

You already learned that the drive gear assembly comes out easily and then you drive the pin out, if needed....

I probably pushed most of the crud in the tube trying to get the drive gear out.

Russ/40 · 03-10-2016, 10:14 PM

I dont think its a problem. Probably wont hurt a thing.

12secvx · 03-10-2016, 10:20 PM

I guess I'm not to worried about the drive gear housing walking around as much as I'm worried that it may effect the oil pressure going to the timing gear area.

1955cj5 · 03-10-2016, 10:37 PM

I think if I were you I'd continue with the original plan for now.

But maybe not spend a lot on parts just yet..

Continue to disassemble and inspect and see what you find.

If there are no other serious problems you or someone else might come up with an idea to repair what you have....just thinking out loud but maybe you could turn down the drive housing and insert some sort of shouldered bushing in the block..

Tinbasher · 03-10-2016, 10:43 PM

I'd clean it up and use a good two part structural adhesive. It's good to 800 deg. f. and has the strength of a weld. (80,000psi) 3M makes a good one.

John Poole

12secvx · 03-10-2016, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1955cj5

I think if I were you I'd continue with the original plan for now.

But maybe not spend a lot on parts just yet..

Continue to disassemble and inspect and see what you find.

If there are no other serious problems you or someone else might come up with an idea to repair what you have....just thinking out loud but maybe you could turn down the drive housing and insert some sort of shouldered bushing in the block..

That is a idea then I could install some kind of indexing pin to keep the hole in the bushing lined up with the oil outlet. Thanks for you thoughts that is the reason I posted my issue in the first place.

12secvx · 03-10-2016, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tinbasher

I'd clean it up and use a good two part structural adhesive. It's good to 800 deg. f. and has the strength of a weld. (80,000psi) 3M makes a good one.

John Poole

Are you suggesting using the adhesive to glue the broken off pieces back in place or to fill the void?

KMeredith87 · 03-10-2016, 10:54 PM

I think the shoulder bushing it a great idea as well...another thing speaking out loud...my brother in law own his own speed shop and I know for a fact one of his race engines had an intake that was repaired using JB Weld. I know a lot of people hate that stuff but it works pretty well when missed right. Not sure the temp that it holds up to but you may be able to build up that area using some JB Weld and then file and sand it to fit. Now vibration may be an issue that could break it up...who knows...just another thought...maybe build it up with a metal such as lead...

larrys40 · 03-10-2016, 11:22 PM

I'm not going to beat you up but you obviously know as vince said you don't remove the shaft that way... The valve chamber and oil galley looks extremely dirty..., so before any attempt at any fix is made the block/valve chamber needs to be clean. If the crank is in it unfortunately there's enough crud in the main tubes from the valve chamber that you've already got the problem of pushing crud into the mains. A recipe for main destruction if not already happened. Also, keep in mind that the oil pumps up through the tube to the front of the valve chamber, filling the front chamber before spilling over to the center and rear chambers. The lack of the proper thrust ( pieces broken) may not allow sufficient flow up the tube to the front.. so it is best to attempt to make it whole. As John said maybe there's a better construction type adhesive that may work better but I do not know what that is.

As John said in post #15 you probably have one effort to try for a best effort fix.... and my suggestion would be to use jb weld with the area around it absolutely oil free and clean, then use the jb weld between the broken pieces to try and keep the thrust surface in tact, using the jub weld as a bonding agent/glue between the pieces and around the back side once they are in to reinforce it. At least it's in the valve chamber area instead of the lower end. make sure its a smooth clean path where the assemble fits in. I once used JB weld to glue together a pot metal fan support that held a 2-blade large prop fan 40 lbs in weight up... it held for 15 years.

Hopefully you've figured out the drive gear. I suspect it really didn't need to be messed with in the beginning. From the lack of cotter pin on the mains ( an inatentiveness on the last mechanic to touch it) and the dirt in the engine it probably isn't far from scrap with the damage. I certainly would NOT rebuild this engine as it is not worth pouring any significant funds into any more than the cost of a gasket kit. Just giving you my honest opinion and what I would do if it was to continue to be a running engine on a best effort basis.

hoping for the best!
Larry Shepard

Rowdy · 03-11-2016, 12:41 AM

As mentioned by others JB Weld or another quality adhesive is your only real hope. I would for sure at this point pull out the crankshaft and clean the oil passages and the rest of the engine inspect for other damage and re-assemble checking bearing clearances. If you do not know how to check and adjust bearings please get some help from a local club member that does know how. Just my thoughts it will never be perfect, but may live until you get your other engine back. Rod

Russ/40 · 03-11-2016, 12:49 AM

There is so much spring tension there, I think there is enough shoulder to be stable without the repair.

CWPASADENA · 03-11-2016, 12:51 AM

I also agree with those who suggested J-B Weld.
As previously stated, everything must be absolutely CLEAN and oil free. I have used it many times in engines with very good results.

Chris W.

Tom Wesenberg · 03-11-2016, 01:39 AM

As mentioned, that engine needs to come apart and get a thorough cleaning. Then I'd also try the adhesive. If the broken parts later came loose, they'd just lay in the valve galley. You could even lay a strong magnet next to the broken area to catch the parts if they did break off again.

colin1928 · 03-11-2016, 03:50 AM

If it were mine I bore out and install a sleeve

Dodge · 03-11-2016, 03:51 AM

I would bore the hole out a bit and make a stepped sleeve and press it in. Turn the
drive housing down a bit and you would be good to go. It will take some tricky machining
to get down in the block but I think I could be done. I'd try it if it were mine.

Kurt in NJ · 03-11-2016, 08:31 AM

I would consider a mechanical repair, take a long bolt, 2 washers, cut a notch in the washer used for the top, use the bolt and washers to clamp the broke piece into position, then through the notch drill a small hole that is the size of a small machine screw (6-32?or so)---tap the hole for threads, put in screw till it bottoms, cut off flush, move washer and put in another screw -----there would be no need to have a perfect seal, any slight leakage would just go into the valve chamber

12secvx · 03-11-2016, 08:51 AM

I will try to take the pan off today and see what the actual state Babbitts look like and then I guess that will probably gauge how much should get into the repair. It does look like it has been through a fairly hard life. There is just no way of telling from the outside how good a used a motor really is. Which is why I took it apart in the first place. I had a bunch of spare parts and gaskets laying around and was planning on making a decent running motor to use this summer then store as a back up. I have a C head and rebuilt water pump for it as well as a B cam with good used lifters. I will post some pics when I get it apart.

1955cj5 · 03-11-2016, 10:47 AM

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Take it slow, take pictures, and ask questions!

Books are always recommended. This is a good place to start..

http://parts.modelastore.com/show_Product.asp?ID=6046

And Bert's has lots of used original parts if you need anything...

The oil pump will drop out when you take the pan off, and if the engine hasn't been upside down on a stand there will be about a quart of oil in the dip tray, even if the pan is empty...

Tinbasher · 03-11-2016, 06:08 PM

Yes use the adhesive to bond the pieces back in place. Light years ahead of JB weld.

John Poole

12secvx · 03-11-2016, 07:37 PM

I got the block apart at work today the main Babbitts look decent they have a couple cracks on in the #1 main on the block side and one on the rear main on the cap but it is on the inside thrust toward the #1 Cyl. All the rods looked good also.

Rowdy · 03-11-2016, 08:42 PM

I hope you did not take my statement on finding someone to help adjust the bearings the wrong way. Seen people really destroy a good engine by not knowing what they were doing when adjusting. Not rocket science, but certain things matter when this is done. Rod

12secvx · 03-11-2016, 08:53 PM

I actually manage to make a living as Toyota Master Tech. So though I was a bonehead and rushed and ended up cracking the block. I'm actually very knowledgeable and have the tools and know how to rebuild and check the bearing oil clearance. But like most people if you aren't a 100% positive ask questions. I enjoy working on my model A though it is relaxing. And a huge change from working on Prius and Camry engines everyday.

12secvx · 03-11-2016, 08:56 PM

Center Main

12secvx · 03-11-2016, 08:57 PM

And rear main

12secvx · 03-11-2016, 08:58 PM

And I found a bonus of sorts in it a aluminum cam Gear.

tbirdtbird · 03-11-2016, 11:13 PM

" one on the rear main on the cap but it is on the inside thrust toward the #1 Cyl."

would you mean the #4 cyl?

the crack shows in the last pic.
It seems the thrusts always give out before the actual journal bearing goes south

12secvx · 03-12-2016, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbirdtbird

" one on the rear main on the cap but it is on the inside thrust toward the #1 Cyl."

would you mean the #4 cyl?

the crack shows in the last pic.
It seems the thrusts always give out before the actual journal bearing goes south

Yeah, that was a horrible description sorry about that and thanks for clearing it up. I agree it isn't the best area to have a crack but I think if I just adjust the oil clearance with the shims I can still get a summer or more out of it and hopefully not have a horrible rear main leak. I plan on cleaning out the rear main oil drain tube and passage good prior to reassemble.

Gerald1961 · 03-12-2016, 12:40 AM

Please consider that glues like JB weld need layers of at least 30-100 microns to harden correctly giving them the high tensile strength. This means putting the cracked parts together will change their dimensions slightly when glue is in between.
To avoid this you could dremel a bead for the glue into the cracked pieces. If you cant do this, you should consider machining the bore after curing.

03-10-2016, 09:47 PM	#3
12secvx Member Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 91	Re: Oh No! Now how am I going to fix this! Yes it is a model A engine. And the drive pin I was trying to remove was the one that hold the top thrust collar on the oil pump/camshaft drive gear. I feel silly enough and guess I should of just figured it out on my own thanks.

03-10-2016, 09:57 PM	#5
12secvx Member Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 91	Re: Oh No! Now how am I going to fix this! The drive gear was very worn and I thought I would replace it with a new one that I had. I then found I couldn't remove it unless I removed the upper collar. I didn't want to scrap a good block with good Babbitts if I could save it some how. Sorry for the poor description but rod is correct about the area that is damaged in the pictures.

03-10-2016, 10:00 PM	#6
12secvx Member Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 91	Re: Oh No! Now how am I going to fix this! Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Fill it with Magna Steel and take my chances are my thoughts.

03-10-2016, 10:02 PM	#7
Big hammer Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Land of Lincoln Posts: 3,127	Re: Oh No! Now how am I going to fix this! Is that inside the valve chamber? Picture taken with a phone

03-10-2016, 10:04 PM	#8
1955cj5 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Boise, Idaho Posts: 1,578	Re: Oh No! Now how am I going to fix this! If it makes you feel any better based on the crud in the center main oil tube that engine was not long for this world anyway... To bad you broke the block. You already learned that the drive gear assembly comes out easily and then you drive the pin out, if needed.... __________________ Early '29 CCPU that had a 4-speed, but not any more.......in the family since '62

03-10-2016, 09:47 PM	#4
Rowdy BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Location: Gothenburg Nebraska Just off I-80 Posts: 4,893	Re: Oh No! Now how am I going to fix this! Vince, I beleive he is referring to the distributor drive and we are looking down at the top of the oil pump shaft in the second picture. I am not sure how you would break this while trying to reseal an engine. Rod __________________ Do the RIGHT thing - Support the H.A.M.B. Alliance!!!!

03-10-2016, 10:14 PM	#10
Russ/40 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Santee, California Posts: 3,505	Re: Oh No! Now how am I going to fix this! I dont think its a problem. Probably wont hurt a thing.

03-10-2016, 10:20 PM	#11
12secvx Member Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 91	Re: Oh No! Now how am I going to fix this! I guess I'm not to worried about the drive gear housing walking around as much as I'm worried that it may effect the oil pressure going to the timing gear area.

03-10-2016, 10:37 PM	#12
1955cj5 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Boise, Idaho Posts: 1,578	Re: Oh No! Now how am I going to fix this! I think if I were you I'd continue with the original plan for now. But maybe not spend a lot on parts just yet.. Continue to disassemble and inspect and see what you find. If there are no other serious problems you or someone else might come up with an idea to repair what you have....just thinking out loud but maybe you could turn down the drive housing and insert some sort of shouldered bushing in the block.. __________________ Early '29 CCPU that had a 4-speed, but not any more.......in the family since '62

03-10-2016, 10:43 PM	#13
Tinbasher Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Innisfil, Ontario Canada Posts: 1,174	Re: Oh No! Now how am I going to fix this! I'd clean it up and use a good two part structural adhesive. It's good to 800 deg. f. and has the strength of a weld. (80,000psi) 3M makes a good one. John Poole

03-10-2016, 10:54 PM	#16
KMeredith87 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: San Antonio Posts: 177	Re: Oh No! Now how am I going to fix this! I think the shoulder bushing it a great idea as well...another thing speaking out loud...my brother in law own his own speed shop and I know for a fact one of his race engines had an intake that was repaired using JB Weld. I know a lot of people hate that stuff but it works pretty well when missed right. Not sure the temp that it holds up to but you may be able to build up that area using some JB Weld and then file and sand it to fit. Now vibration may be an issue that could break it up...who knows...just another thought...maybe build it up with a metal such as lead...

03-10-2016, 11:22 PM	#17
larrys40 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: St Charles , Missouri Posts: 1,998	Re: Oh No! Now how am I going to fix this! I'm not going to beat you up but you obviously know as vince said you don't remove the shaft that way... The valve chamber and oil galley looks extremely dirty..., so before any attempt at any fix is made the block/valve chamber needs to be clean. If the crank is in it unfortunately there's enough crud in the main tubes from the valve chamber that you've already got the problem of pushing crud into the mains. A recipe for main destruction if not already happened. Also, keep in mind that the oil pumps up through the tube to the front of the valve chamber, filling the front chamber before spilling over to the center and rear chambers. The lack of the proper thrust ( pieces broken) may not allow sufficient flow up the tube to the front.. so it is best to attempt to make it whole. As John said maybe there's a better construction type adhesive that may work better but I do not know what that is. As John said in post #15 you probably have one effort to try for a best effort fix.... and my suggestion would be to use jb weld with the area around it absolutely oil free and clean, then use the jb weld between the broken pieces to try and keep the thrust surface in tact, using the jub weld as a bonding agent/glue between the pieces and around the back side once they are in to reinforce it. At least it's in the valve chamber area instead of the lower end. make sure its a smooth clean path where the assemble fits in. I once used JB weld to glue together a pot metal fan support that held a 2-blade large prop fan 40 lbs in weight up... it held for 15 years. Hopefully you've figured out the drive gear. I suspect it really didn't need to be messed with in the beginning. From the lack of cotter pin on the mains ( an inatentiveness on the last mechanic to touch it) and the dirt in the engine it probably isn't far from scrap with the damage. I certainly would NOT rebuild this engine as it is not worth pouring any significant funds into any more than the cost of a gasket kit. Just giving you my honest opinion and what I would do if it was to continue to be a running engine on a best effort basis. hoping for the best! Larry Shepard Last edited by larrys40; 03-10-2016 at 11:28 PM.

03-11-2016, 12:41 AM	#18
Rowdy BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Location: Gothenburg Nebraska Just off I-80 Posts: 4,893	Re: Oh No! Now how am I going to fix this! As mentioned by others JB Weld or another quality adhesive is your only real hope. I would for sure at this point pull out the crankshaft and clean the oil passages and the rest of the engine inspect for other damage and re-assemble checking bearing clearances. If you do not know how to check and adjust bearings please get some help from a local club member that does know how. Just my thoughts it will never be perfect, but may live until you get your other engine back. Rod __________________ Do the RIGHT thing - Support the H.A.M.B. Alliance!!!!

03-11-2016, 12:49 AM	#19
Russ/40 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Santee, California Posts: 3,505	Re: Oh No! Now how am I going to fix this! There is so much spring tension there, I think there is enough shoulder to be stable without the repair.

03-11-2016, 12:51 AM	#20
CWPASADENA Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: PASADENA, CA Posts: 1,882	Re: Oh No! Now how am I going to fix this! I also agree with those who suggested J-B Weld. As previously stated, everything must be absolutely CLEAN and oil free. I have used it many times in engines with very good results. Chris W.

03-11-2016, 01:39 AM	#21
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Oh No! Now how am I going to fix this! As mentioned, that engine needs to come apart and get a thorough cleaning. Then I'd also try the adhesive. If the broken parts later came loose, they'd just lay in the valve galley. You could even lay a strong magnet next to the broken area to catch the parts if they did break off again.

03-11-2016, 03:50 AM	#22
colin1928 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Australa Melbourne Posts: 878	Re: Oh No! Now how am I going to fix this! If it were mine I bore out and install a sleeve

03-11-2016, 03:51 AM	#23
Dodge Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Sonoma, CA. Posts: 1,496	Re: Oh No! Now how am I going to fix this! I would bore the hole out a bit and make a stepped sleeve and press it in. Turn the drive housing down a bit and you would be good to go. It will take some tricky machining to get down in the block but I think I could be done. I'd try it if it were mine.

03-11-2016, 08:31 AM	#24
Kurt in NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: on the Littlefield Posts: 6,156	Re: Oh No! Now how am I going to fix this! I would consider a mechanical repair, take a long bolt, 2 washers, cut a notch in the washer used for the top, use the bolt and washers to clamp the broke piece into position, then through the notch drill a small hole that is the size of a small machine screw (6-32?or so)---tap the hole for threads, put in screw till it bottoms, cut off flush, move washer and put in another screw -----there would be no need to have a perfect seal, any slight leakage would just go into the valve chamber

03-11-2016, 08:51 AM	#25
12secvx Member Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 91	Re: Oh No! Now how am I going to fix this! I will try to take the pan off today and see what the actual state Babbitts look like and then I guess that will probably gauge how much should get into the repair. It does look like it has been through a fairly hard life. There is just no way of telling from the outside how good a used a motor really is. Which is why I took it apart in the first place. I had a bunch of spare parts and gaskets laying around and was planning on making a decent running motor to use this summer then store as a back up. I have a C head and rebuilt water pump for it as well as a B cam with good used lifters. I will post some pics when I get it apart.

03-11-2016, 10:47 AM	#26
1955cj5 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Boise, Idaho Posts: 1,578	Re: Oh No! Now how am I going to fix this! Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Take it slow, take pictures, and ask questions! Books are always recommended. This is a good place to start.. http://parts.modelastore.com/show_Product.asp?ID=6046 And Bert's has lots of used original parts if you need anything... The oil pump will drop out when you take the pan off, and if the engine hasn't been upside down on a stand there will be about a quart of oil in the dip tray, even if the pan is empty... __________________ Early '29 CCPU that had a 4-speed, but not any more.......in the family since '62

03-11-2016, 06:08 PM	#27
Tinbasher Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Innisfil, Ontario Canada Posts: 1,174	Re: Oh No! Now how am I going to fix this! Yes use the adhesive to bond the pieces back in place. Light years ahead of JB weld. John Poole

03-11-2016, 08:42 PM	#29
Rowdy BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Location: Gothenburg Nebraska Just off I-80 Posts: 4,893	Re: Oh No! Now how am I going to fix this! I hope you did not take my statement on finding someone to help adjust the bearings the wrong way. Seen people really destroy a good engine by not knowing what they were doing when adjusting. Not rocket science, but certain things matter when this is done. Rod __________________ Do the RIGHT thing - Support the H.A.M.B. Alliance!!!!

03-11-2016, 08:53 PM	#30
12secvx Member Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 91	Re: Oh No! Now how am I going to fix this! I actually manage to make a living as Toyota Master Tech. So though I was a bonehead and rushed and ended up cracking the block. I'm actually very knowledgeable and have the tools and know how to rebuild and check the bearing oil clearance. But like most people if you aren't a 100% positive ask questions. I enjoy working on my model A though it is relaxing. And a huge change from working on Prius and Camry engines everyday.

03-11-2016, 11:13 PM	#34
tbirdtbird BANNED Join Date: May 2012 Location: inside your RAM Posts: 3,134	Re: Oh No! Now how am I going to fix this! " one on the rear main on the cap but it is on the inside thrust toward the #1 Cyl." would you mean the #4 cyl? the crack shows in the last pic. It seems the thrusts always give out before the actual journal bearing goes south __________________ '31 180A

03-12-2016, 12:40 AM	#36
Gerald1961 Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Germany Posts: 59	Re: Oh No! Now how am I going to fix this! Please consider that glues like JB weld need layers of at least 30-100 microns to harden correctly giving them the high tensile strength. This means putting the cracked parts together will change their dimensions slightly when glue is in between. To avoid this you could dremel a bead for the glue into the cracked pieces. If you cant do this, you should consider machining the bore after curing.