Reproduction fenders

[Ken B]

I have done some searching on old Fordbarn posts about reproduction fenders. I am considering purchasing fenders, splash aprons, and running boards for a 1930 project. I am confused from previous posts about who is making them. Some posts say that all of them are made from Albrecht's Towing in OH. Some other posts say that they are all made by Gaslight Auto parts. And another mentions Brookville Roadster as a maker. Which one is correct? I have heard some horror stories about the fit of the 30 front fenders. Are they getting worse? I would like to get a bit more educated before pursuing these parts. Thanks in advance for any advice.
Ken

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Depends on which fender you are speaking of. Gaslight Auto Parts owns the dies for the front fenders. Albrecht makes rear Coupe/Roadster fenders only. Antique Auto Sheetmetal (d/b/a/ Brookville Roadster) is a wholesale dealer for those two entities.

As far as the 1930 front fenders getting worse, the simple answer is yes. Each time a piece of sheetmetal is drawn over the die, the die wears a tad more. To my knowledge, there are no immediate plans to rebuild/replace the dies.

Bob Johnson has listed a few tech articles I wrote some time ago on how to correct them. CLICK HERE to find a link to them. Hopefully that will give you some additional education in your pursuit.

.

[pooch]

Originally Posted by Ken B

I have heard some horror stories about the fit of the 30 front fenders.

After seeing Brent's work just to fix the gaps and fit on "new" fenders was a nightmare.

I would be pi$$ed off big time if I paid good money for this rubbish.

[Durango]

Rubbish is just what these 30-31 repro. front fenders are. Even after 40 + hours of fitting the splash apron to the fender, when installed had so much stress I decided not to use it. Its sitting out back with the other junk fenders. Gaslite should be ashamed !!
Durango

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Guys with all due respect, while I agree they are not as good as they used to be a decade or so ago, the dies are worn and need to be rebuilt (--or replaced) but the ROI is just not there. They are however, better than nothing! I might also add that the dealers & Gaslight both will be very honest with you and tell you they know the quality is not there on these fenders but they are at least offering them at a price that meets a current need.

Also, the car below actually had reproduction front fenders on it and was entered into fine-point judging at French Lick. Granted this was not without some finesse' & modifications first, but it can be done. On a side note, I recently purchased a NOS left-front 1930 fender for well over 4X the amount of what you will pay for a reproduction fender, ...and was ecstatic to get it at that price! Quality just costs money no matter which route you decide to take.

.

[Pilotdave]

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From Brent's post: "Quality just costs money no matter which route you decide to take." I totally agree.

[Mikeinnj]

So Gaslight will keep banging out crappy fenders, and the Model A owners will keep buying them and pulling their hair out attempting to make them fit ? Sounds mighty stupid to me.

Has Gaslight paid off the cost of the worn out dies they continue to use to make crappy fenders? If so, perhaps it's time for someone to re-tool some new dies that will make NOS quality fenders and the consumers will pay more but get what they pay for.

[Glenn C.]

Crap is right ! I had a pair of 29 repo fenders that flared out on the side, would not butt together with the running boards, bead was too wide, headlight bar holes did not line up. Cost to repair would have been as much as repairing a used set.
My advise......find good used fenders and go from there. That is unless you are a skilled old time body man who likes lots of work.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Mikeinnj

So Gaslight will keep banging out crappy fenders, and the Model A owners will keep buying them and pulling their hair out attempting to make them fit ? Sounds mighty stupid to me.

Has Gaslight paid off the cost of the worn out dies they continue to use to make crappy fenders? If so, perhaps it's time for someone to re-tool some new dies that will make NOS quality fenders and the consumers will pay more but get what they pay for.

Mike, Glenn, et al,; while you and others may feel it is stupid/crap what Gaslight is doing or producing, some of us are happy to get them and will continue to work them into what we need.

To respond to the second part of Mike's comment, ...maybe that "someone" is you who would be willing to step up and front the money necessary to remanufacture the dies?? I know I cannot afford to do it!


For others who may also be considering this option, lets just assume the price is $200,000.00 for the dies necessary to reproduce only a Left Front fender and you are the "someone" that is going to come to the rescue. So which one do we choose to make? Last November I was up at the archives doing research and if I recall correctly, I found prints that confirm there were 5 different versions of fenders that Ford made to fit the 1930-1931 model. The one that Gaslight manufactures is actually from the Service Replacement fender, --which was never used on production vehicles. As such, you now have some restorers who will claim what you are producing isn't exactly right and therefore they won't purchase it (--thus fewer purchasers) and post comments in public places how you should have done this or that.

So lets assume you have still chosen to re-tool and are going to create the S/Replacement fender which can be modified to fit either year. Now the catalog price you see is not the price the manufacturer gets for his product. Remember the dealer needs to make a profit and the dealer must factor in shipping to his store (i.e.: huge cost) for the resale. Lets just use a hypothetical figure where this new fender will retail for $600.00. Now let's say the maximum $$ amount that you as the manufacturer will be able to wholesale each fender for will be $400.00 FOB. Now you as the manufacturer will have stamping costs, material costs (sheetmetal, die lube, etc.), packaging costs (cardboard boxing & labor to adequately pack), and warehousing costs (building, forklift, shipping labor, etc.). In reality when you factor in all of the other costs, you will be flying to be able to amortize $100.00 off of each fender made to cover just the die costs (...and remember this does not factor in die damage or premature wear areas that must be rebuilt!). So the break even point is theoretically at 2,000 fenders just for the die costs. I personally think that 200 fenders being sold annually is an optimistic figure but even so, that is a 10 year payback providing nothing goes wrong or the hobby does not change directions. Are you still that "someone" willing to re-tool and take the financial risk? If so, I'm sure there are many folks who will sing your praises! I know I would but remember, just like Mr. Becker stated above, you will still have a competitor in Gaslight and some folks will still choose the cheaper, --yet inferior product which means that is just one less unit you were able to sell.

.

[Dodge]

Brent,

Amen.............well said.

[Purdy Swoft]

Here is a set of the repro fenders that I put on the coupe in 94. My daughter now has the coupe and the fenders still look good, eighteen years later. The left front was the hardest to fit. I had to do a bit of cutting and welding where the left front meets the side of the repro splash apron. There was two styles of rear fenders offered at the time. The guy that I bought them from, talked me into using the rears that were twenty dollars less for each. The rears fit without modification but if I did it again, I would use the more expensive fender. These new fenders at the time were not that much harder to fit than the replacement parts that we got from the automakers for the modern cars that we repaired in the body shop. Anybody that is a bodyman or has worked in a body shop will know what I mean. The only replacement body parts that actually fit the modern cars was Volvo. You could lay them in place and all of the gaps and bolt holes would line up. Most bodymen will agree that we only got the reject parts for replacement on the USA made cars. I feel that the repro fenders will be easier to work with than most of the rusted beat up original fenders. It won't be cheap either way if you can't do it yourself..

[Richard Wilson]

Now if I could win one of those BIG lottery jackpots..................new front fender dies and pay off the new Model A Museum and still have money for a peanut butter and jelly sandwich.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Richard Wilson

Now if I could win one of those BIG lottery jackpots..................new front fender dies and pay off the new Model A Museum and still have money for a peanut butter and jelly sandwich.

Richard, could I possibly persuade you to spend that new-found windfall on something that I personally would deem a little more beneficial to the entire hobby? How about investing in dies to make a few different types of gas tanks instead of fenders??




.

[Richard Wilson]

Good thinking Brent. Gas tanks would sell 10 to 1 over fenders.....IF we could afford the liability insurance. Might have to win two big lotteries.

[ericr]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Mike, Glenn, et al,; while you and others may feel it is stupid/crap what Gaslight is doing or producing, some of us are happy to get them and will continue to work them into what we need.

To respond to the second part of Mike's comment, ...maybe that "someone" is you who would be willing to step up and front the money necessary to remanufacture the dies?? I know I cannot afford to do it!


For others who may also be considering this option, lets just assume the price is $200,000.00 for the dies necessary to reproduce only a Left Front fender and you are the "someone" that is going to come to the rescue. So which one do we choose to make? Last November I was up at the archives doing research and if I recall correctly, I found prints that confirm there were 5 different versions of fenders that Ford made to fit the 1930-1931 model. The one that Gaslight manufactures is actually from the Service Replacement fender, --which was never used on production vehicles. As such, you now have some restorers who will claim what you are producing isn't exactly right and therefore they won't purchase it (--thus fewer purchasers) and post comments in public places how you should have done this or that.

So lets assume you have still chosen to re-tool and are going to create the S/Replacement fender which can be modified to fit either year. Now the catalog price you see is not the price the manufacturer gets for his product. Remember the dealer needs to make a profit and the dealer must factor in shipping to his store (i.e.: huge cost) for the resale. Lets just use a hypothetical figure where this new fender will retail for $600.00. Now let's say the maximum $$ amount that you as the manufacturer will be able to wholesale each fender for will be $400.00 FOB. Now you as the manufacturer will have stamping costs, material costs (sheetmetal, die lube, etc.), packaging costs (cardboard boxing & labor to adequately pack), and warehousing costs (building, forklift, shipping labor, etc.). In reality when you factor in all of the other costs, you will be flying to be able to amortize $100.00 off of each fender made to cover just the die costs (...and remember this does not factor in die damage or premature wear areas that must be rebuilt!). So the break even point is theoretically at 2,000 fenders just for the die costs. I personally think that 200 fenders being sold annually is an optimistic figure but even so, that is a 10 year payback providing nothing goes wrong or the hobby does not change directions. Are you still that "someone" willing to re-tool and take the financial risk? If so, I'm sure there are many folks who will sing your praises! I know I would but remember, just like Mr. Becker stated above, you will still have a competitor in Gaslight and some folks will still choose the cheaper, --yet inferior product which means that is just one less unit you were able to sell.

.

it's obviously far more complicated (i.e. expensive) than meets the eye, and the size and shape of a Model "A" fender verifies that. If initial die cost is the big hit in such a project, wouldn't someone farm that out to China? The concept is distasteful to many restorers though WalMart doesn't lose much sleep over it.

[ronn]

Brent, well said. Thank you for enlightening those that don't understand the costs involved in producing parts. I for one will attest that most model A guys are not going to spend 1000. for a perfect fitting fender and so it will never happen.

[Mikeinnj]

Originally Posted by ronn

Brent, well said. Thank you for enlightening those that don't understand the costs involved in producing parts. I for one will attest that most model A guys are not going to spend 1000. for a perfect fitting fender and so it will never happen.

Brent, I understand your concern in this matter. The only source for fenders produces a crappy product which you are willing to buy and pass the additional cost on to your customers for transforming the crappy fender into a somewhat acceptable if not correct fender.

If someone cannot do the metalwork themself and are at the mercy of having the work done by a professional Model A Restoration Shop, they will be paying very close to that $1000.00 per fender, or more, after the initial cost of the crappy fitting repro fender ($500.00) and then a whole bunch of hours for labor at $XX.XX per hour, plus paint. So Ron, in answer to your comment, you are spending that $1000.00 per fender now.

I say boycott any manufacturer who produces crappy reproduction parts otherwise you are "rewarding bad behavior". Tell your suppliers you won't buy junk for your Model A. so they will pressure the manufacturers to produce a better quality product.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Mikeinnj

Brent, I understand your concern in this matter. The only source for fenders produces a crappy product which you are willing to buy and pass the additional cost on to your customers for transforming the crappy fender into a somewhat acceptable if not correct fender.

If someone cannot do the metalwork themself and are at the mercy of having the work done by a professional Model A Restoration Shop, they will be paying very close to that $1000.00 per fender, or more, after the initial cost of the crappy fitting repro fender ($500.00) and then a whole bunch of hours for labor at $XX.XX per hour, plus paint. So Ron, in answer to your comment, you are spending that $1000.00 per fender now.

I say boycott any manufacturer who produces crappy reproduction parts otherwise you are "rewarding bad behavior". Tell your suppliers you won't buy junk for your Model A. so they will pressure the manufacturers to produce a better quality product.

I appreciate your perspective. The other thought in this is that there are generally two other viable alternatives. #1 is just to use whatever rough original fender that you can find and fix to the best of your abilities & budget and use it as-is. #2 is if money is really tight and one has few skills, then fiberglass fenders are always an option for that person. While there is fitting to be done, the cost outlay and materials/skills needed to do the work is minimal. To me it is a priorities deal where one must put a $$ value on 'Quality', ...and only the person with the wallet can establish that.

Finally, your comment of "If someone cannot do the -work themself and are at the mercy of having the work done by a professional ..." kinda applies to all facits of owning/restoring a Model-A. If you do not have the capability of pouring & machining engine babbit, you are at the mercy of having the work done by a professional. If you cannot sew fabric, you are at the mercy of having the work done by a professional. If you cannot paint, -or plate, -or cut glass, -or "whatever", ...you are at the mercy of having the work done by a professional!

[pooch]

Is Chinese sheetmetal drawn over inferior dies any better than USA made fibreglass?

Both ain't original parts.

[Ken B]

Thanks to all that have replied. I have to agree with Brent. The costs of making new dies are way too high for anyone to pursue the project. I am interested in building a 1930 C-Cab delivery. I do have front fenders that could be brought back to life. The rear fenders on the other hand are very rough. Also, the rears are from a coupe and might be too wide. Does anyone know what width rear fenders would be correct for a woodie or C-cab delivery body?