The difference between polls and reality.

[Tod]

Makes me wonder if I should cast anything based on what people say they want.

[C26Pinelake]

It only means something when you get money up front! it is easy to say yes when you are not investing any money, Model A people are about the cheapest people around. They often are looking for quality at a ridiculously low price. Wayne

[V8COOPMAN]

Tod........I don't understand ALL of your figures, but I am trying hard to understand what you're getting at. Are you maybe suggesting that just about EVERYONE seems to be "a little short of cash" this month? Just curious! DD

[Tod]

Originally Posted by forever4

I still want the cast iron head indicated and discussed a couple years ago. How is that one going?

I have 3 of them in the shop and machined and 4 more being cast. But, I sure won't cast any on anyone's word that they want one. Lesson learned.

Tod

[C26Pinelake]

With all due respect you were possibly naive to embark on this business venture without money upfront to back promises. You will have a little more business savy the next time. Possibly in defense of the masses is the fact that this venture has taken an inordinate amount of time. Wayne

[hardtimes]

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Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

Tod........I don't understand ALL of your figures, but I am trying hard to understand what you're getting at. Are you maybe suggesting that just about EVERYONE seems to be "a little short of cash" this month? Just curious! DD

Hey DD,
This 'chart/poll' was made awhile back to indicate what hobbyist (A/B ENGINE) guys preferred to purchase, if that became available.

Well, NOW that the production of those preferences in A/B blocks has become reality...based on those figures on poll...has ANYONE stepped up with a deposit ?

I could be wrong, and Tod can correct me if, more than a FEW guys have made a deposit.

Talking 'a little short of cash', that's what situation a product maker will be in , if he does not get commitments, eh ?

Tod has shown , with a running engine, that his commitment ($) is there in effort, knowledge, tooling and product. IMO, it would be safe to say that He is in this endeavor for substantial money outlay....and a little short on cash.

I see what you are saying with the use of word 'EVERYONE'. I apologize if wrong, but except for a few, it does seem that there is a shortage of commitment !

Even I, who do not make anything but foul air , know that this is a monumental step forward for this hobby, for as long as Tod can make blocks/heads/stuff for us. He has to have guys step forward with deposits to keep moving forward.

When looking over the history of this venture, it is evident that Tod has asked for guys to step up with requests of blocks, etc. Time for that to happen before the opportunity goes away.

[C26Pinelake]

Unfortunately Model A people have to ask permission to make a purchase. When it comes right down to it their wife makes the decisions concerning money and she deals with her brain instead of her heart. She prioritized the have to haves ahead of the. Nice to haves. A new block can hardly be considered a necessity in life that takes priority over a college education. WayneI

[Tod]

Originally Posted by forever4

Tod
You said you were not taking deposits. I told you what I wanted by email. You never confirmed after your initial reply. You never notified that any were actually done or available now.

But you say you will "not cast any on anyone's word that they want one"???? So how do I get the head bought that I said I wanted, and apparently you have in your shop?

You were not included in the general sentiment. Since you were expressing solid interest from the start, in the Winfield, I figured to cover you in the next few castings.

But, all this is a digression from the issue of block interest.

Tod

[C26Pinelake]

Sorry Todd but the fault lies with the person in your mirror. You did not go about this in the proper manner . As I said before you were naive and now you pay the price. You should have demanded a 50% deposit and weeded out the maybe buyers and dealt with the genuine buyers. As I see it your target group should have been the engine rebuilders! Hopefully you can recoup your investment and start again in a different direction Wayne . .

[[email protected]]

Tod,
I belong to a local Model A club that has approx 90 members and several of these members own more than 1 Model A. The median age of our club members is around 73 years old and most don't own a PC or even know about Ford Barn.

There is always a club member having an engine rebuilt or replaced. We hear the horror stories of going through countless block / cores to find one that will do the job. Lots of repaired cracked blocks out there as well being held together with JB Weld. If the current engine rebuilders has your new block most would go for it over a block that should be used for a boat anchor. Also for what it is worth one of the Model A parts vendors told me that the majority of his customers don't belong to any National Model A club.

I just say this to let you know that there is a silent majority out there that you are not polling......

[P.S.]

Tod,

As soon as you make a Model A block, and make it available, I will buy it. Last I heard, you were going to offer them through Snyder's. I was just kinda waiting on that.

I never participated in any online poll. I was simply waiting for them to be made available. I am NOT short of cash, I can buy one today if it is available.

My engine rebuder is Turlock Machine. I am anxious to take your block to him and make a motor out of it. The ball is in your court.

Kindest regards.

[mshmodela]

It seems to me customers for your product would be the engine builders primarily, the Model A owner Mechanic secondary. By that I suspect many would prefer to buy a built long or short engine.

My assumption above is that most, not all Model A owner/mechanics could not build out an engine property -- takes years of experience...

Also, I think some end data on a few working engines installed on cars, a few cars with few thousand miles on them would help.

The owners would be putting out likely close to $5,000 so for folks to take the dive, they'd like to see more data.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Build it and they will come.

I think Mike is right about getting a few out there and running will certainly help promote and sell the new block.

[C26Pinelake]

You need a business / marketing manager with in depth knowledge of your product for marketing purposes. Generally speaking tradesmen are not good managers and managers are not good tradesmen. Nobody can be a master of all trades. An attempt to do so will result in failure. My businesses are successful because of the tremendous expertise I surround myself with. Lesson learned for both of us. Good luck ! Wayne

[Mitch//pa]

The reality is to get the blocks built by the main player rebuilders.. Then when the consumer can just order ready to go long and short blocks guaranteed by the builders, you'll be busy keeping up casting them.. I'll order a few insert motors, when that becomes possible.
Thanks as the time and effort you invested will become fruitful.

[denis4x4]

I've seen this happen countless times in the aftermarket hot rod equipment business. I understand that if Tod had taken deposits and then didn't deliver, he would be bad mouthed from here to ahooga and back again.

Here's an interesting question: would Tod's block be acceptable in MARC or MAFCA judging? If so, I see that as a positive sales point. In as much he is entitled to make a profit, I can't help but wonder if the price point makes it difficult to wholesale these blocks. Too, how would an engine builder treat a customer that brought in a Tod block.

I've seen way too many brilliant guys like Tod that know their way around a machine shop lose money because they didn't understand marketing. Somebody needs to step up to the plate and help him market these blocks.

And no, not me!!!! I'm a hot rodder, not a Model A guy

[fordcragar]

I don't remember the poll and I haven't been on this site very much this year. I was and am interested in a cast iron Winfield head, but posted the question in the Winfield Castings thread.

[fordcragar]

Over the years I've put together some group buys of things that most of the group is interested. Initially, when the post of made to those interested, there is a lot of interest. What I've found is when you ask for money the equation changes.

[mshmodela]

Also the demand for your product once it gets in to full production has to be close to 100 per year -- who would in their right mind rebuild a 80+ year old block once yours are available... Hang in there, my block as a crack and a band aid so I hope to be a customer.

[C26Pinelake]

Originally Posted by mshmodela

Also the demand for your product once it gets in to full production has to be close to 100 per year -- who would in their right mind rebuild a 80+ year old block once yours are available... Hang in there, my block as a crack and a band aid so I hope to be a customer.

[B]To suggest people with the need for a block will flock to purchase is quite naive. Model A people are not usually big money spenders. They are out looking for the cheapest available and most can not afford an expenditure of this magnitude. I am sure this black totally rebuilt and installed will amout to a $6000 plus expenditure. That is far beyond the budget of most Barners. His market as I said previously belongs in the hands of the rebuilders. Wayne

[Dave in MN]

Tod,

Speaking as an engine builder, here is what I need to purchase your blocks and have them on the shelf available to my customers:
1) A warranty on the casting to pass along to my customer
2) A price that is a bit less than the general customer. The reality is: I need to sit on the cost of the block until a customer purchases it. I can't mark the block up to cover my carrying cost if the customer can purchase directly from you at the same price. **See note below.
3) I need the cam bore finished ready to install the cam but more importantly, to allow me to index off it and the pan rail to locate the crankshaft.
4) I need the lifter and valve guide bores finished.

**In order to sell more of your blocks, I need to have them on my shelf fully machined and ready to assemble. When a customer brings in an engine and we discover a fatal crack, he is more likely to spend the extra money on a new block that will get him back on the road quickly. Having them fully machined and ready to assemble means I need to invest and carry the final machining cost also.

We have talked/emailed and I am still interested. I originally said I would order 2 and I still am on board to do so. If the block is all you say it is, I would likely up the next order and following orders to be 3-5 at a time as I typically set up and machine blocks for the shelf in batches of 4.

Good Day!

[Tod]

Thanks for all the responses. I am busy trying to get a bunch of stuff out of the shop right now and will try to respond to various points when I can.

Tod

[ronn]

Tod,

as mentioned a few times in the past- I will take two aluminum Winfield heads-6 or 6.5 to 1
with crowsfoot and preferably lettered Winfield
can pay you now and pu at Hershey from Synders, or however you want to do it?

thank you for all youve done,
ronn

[Tod]

Originally Posted by ronn

Tod,

as mentioned a few times in the past- I will take two aluminum Winfield heads-6 or 6.5 to 1
with crowsfoot and preferably lettered Winfield
can pay you now and pu at Hershey from Synders, or however you want to do it?

thank you for all youve done,
ronn

Email me about the aluminum heads.

Tod

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by forever4

Dave,
On this new non-Ford block, realistically you should not index the main align off of the cam bore.

Instead the main bores should be precision located and finished from Tod to be square with the back of the block, as well as centered exactly with the flywheel housing dowels.

The cam bores should be then finished by Tod or you off the main align.

If this is not done you may build an engine that runs great in a stand but misaligns the flywheel to the transmission, and there is no easy fix for that.

Hey Vince, a Tobin Arp machine actually indexes off of the cam bores, and usually the main bores are only rough machined due to the poured babbitt. Do you suppose that is why Dave suggested that?

[Tod]

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Wow.

Tod

[Mike V. Florida]

“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” ― Henry Ford

If it were me I would start with stock and a run of 30 or so.

[hardtimes]

Hey Dave,
As an engine builder, have you viewed the first new A block running video ?
This video shows a fully assembled / running Model A engine the first Tod block.
If you've watched that video, what is your impression regarding how is runs and how the block must have been machined correctly , for it to run that well ?
Seems , IMO, to run very well.

[Tod]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” ― Henry Ford

If it were me I would start with stock and a run of 30 or so.

That's the way I'm leaning, except making the first runs 10 at a time. The first machining could be 5 A interior/tail and 5 B interior/tail. Machined for Babbitt. I think I'll get the ball rolling in that direction this week.

If someone wants inserted mains they need to let me know so we can discuss it.

Looks like the first 2 aluminum will sell/be sold as of now. If anyone wants an aluminum block I need to know that also.

Email me because there is no sense going on about it here.

I will have to have deposits that cover castings so I can pay the foundry immediately. They love it when you can pay up front or C.O.D.


Tod

[Dave in MN]

Originally Posted by forever4

Dave,
On this new non-Ford block, realistically you should not index the main align off of the cam bore.

Instead the main bores should be precision located and finished from Tod to be square with the back of the block, as well as centered exactly with the flywheel housing dowels.

The cam bores should be then finished by Tod or you off the main align.

If this is not done you may build an engine that runs great in a stand but misaligns the flywheel to the transmission, and there is no easy fix for that.

It is my assumption that the rear seal flange and provided main bore will be precisely located to the dowels and squared with the back of the block and dead center between the main cap bolts. Without this critical machining, I would not be a customer. Per original communication with Todd, he was to provide this. He was not going to get into custom sizing of the rough main bore. Staying to Ford's standard rough bore allows for Babbitt or further machining as I do to accept insert bearings.
Even with the located main bore, I still want the cam bore, lifter and guide bores finished. I do not want to set up for locating the camshaft bore...

Vince, thank you for your advice...I agree with you.

Good Day!

[Dave in MN]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

Hey Dave,
As an engine builder, have you viewed the first new A block running video ?
This video shows a fully assembled / running Model A engine the first Tod block.
If you've watched that video, what is your impression regarding how is runs and how the block must have been machined correctly , for it to run that well ?
Seems , IMO, to run very well.

Yes, I have seen the video. It runs...seems smooth given the video stream I had.
An engine running unloaded on an engine stand only gives you a partial picture. Connecting it to a dyno or install it in a car and run it 10,000+ miles for the true tests. All yet to be done.
I hold to be true what Vince says regarding alignment of the crankshaft to the rear dowel pins and being machined square with the back of the block. Vince from and earlier post: "If this is not done you may build an engine that runs great in a stand but misaligns the flywheel to the transmission, and there is no easy fix for that."

I have not seen any critical evaluations of the product. The block needs to be carefully measured to verify its accuracy. Let's all give Tod time to finish bringing this product to market. Time will tell if everything is right.

Good day!

[C26Pinelake]

In response to your original question I think this project has dragged on so long that people just lost interest. It did not happen as quickly as people thought it would of or it should have, Just my opinion! Wayne

[mshmodela]

I would surely think getting a few blocks in real cars will without question be a business boom to both Tod and all engine builders.. I suspect many are hanging on to there 85+ year old iron as the roll of the dice on another 85+ year old iron has many just well gun/dollar shy...

[tbirdtbird]

why not put the motor that Prus built in a car and on the road for shakedown and settle the speculation

[hardtimes]

Hey Dave,
Thanks for sharing your knowledge and take on viewing the video and use of Tod's first engine.
I'd bet that , as Tod has done with heads/exhaust manifolds, etc, he will have a test monkey put this first engine in a Model A car. If I was not on left coast, I'd yank my B out of my '30 roadster and put some mileage on that engine. I'm sure that Tod has thought this whole thing thru.

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

All centering of the Model A block for machining was centered off the left hand rear main bolt hole, opposite the camshaft.

Herm.