1933 vs. 1934 Ford Frame VIN#'s locations

[Capn John]

To check whether it's a B frame go here for the VIN/Serial numbers!

B model: http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/ABenginenumbers.htm

if all else fails, http://restostamps.com/index.php?opt...alog&Itemid=26

AND
International Title Service, www.its-titles.com


International Title Service


3230 E. Flamingo Rd. Suite 8-357
Las Vegas, Nevada 89121
1-702-456-4027 - 1-702-456-4040 FAX
1-800-543-8626 USA & CANADA

[DavidG]

Ford's written instructions to its assembly plants worldwide during that period was to stamp the full engine number (with either a B prefix for fours or a 18 prefix for V-8s and preceding and following stars) on the left side of the frame adjacent to the front of the firewall. Passenger car frames were to be stamped without the prefix additionally mid-way along the top of the left frame rail and on top of the kickup for the rear axle. Commercial and truck frames were only to be stamped at the firewall location.

Obviously these instructions were followed to varying degrees given the many variations that show up on original frames, including some '33 frames stamped with a 40 prefix and some that were stamped on the right frame rail. A '97' prefix, however, would seem to be well outside the usual range of those variations.

[lfs11]

Thanks all. Yes I seem to have an odd case. I will see what I can do to bring the numbers up so I can read them as the 7 digit starting with 97 doesn't fit.
The numbers I am reading are stamped on the top of the frame by the steering box. I may try to find others somewhere on the car. The eng and trans are not orig so thats a dead end and I guess if the DMV is good with it I should be as well. Just curious about origin etc.
Thanks again and I will report back if I figure anything out.

[Ramjet]

All, although an old thread, I've got a 33 with stars at each end of the number, althought directly after the first star is a double ended arrow then the 6 digits...........any ideas on this?

[DavidG]

An awful lot of groping on this one for what should be pretty common knowledge by now. Ford only built engines during this era in three places, the Rouge Engine Plant in Dearborn, Michigan, the engine plant of Ford of Canada in what at the time was known as Walkerville, Ontario (now known as Windsor, Ontario), and on the Ford Estate at Dagenham, England. Because of this limited number of sources, there was pretty thorough conformity to the numbering of engines as they were produced. Ford of Canada had its own unique numbering system where the unique alpha-numeric prefix was changed after each block of 10,000 V-8 engines was produced (blocks of 5,000 in the case of four-cylinder engine production). The engines produced at Dagenham were numbered with the same prefixes as used by the Rouge and were stamped with specific numbers from blocks of the engine numbers assigned by the Rouge from its series of numbers (thereby avoiding using the same number on two different engines).

In the case of V-8 engines, the proscribed numbering of the transmission bell housing was *(star)18-xxxxxxxx*(star) starting with *18-1*. The one exception acknowledged in the Rouge Engine Log was that the first "few" 1933 model engines used the prefix "40" before the procedure reverted to once again using the "18" prefix. DavidJ would seem to have the transmission from one of those "few" engine/transmission assemblies produced on November 14, 1932 when the first '33 model V-8 engine was produced or shortly after December 18, 1932 (the Rouge Engine Plant was not in operation from November 15th through December 18th).

Were these instructions carried out to the letter in every instance? That's not likely given human nature, but it's likely that they were carried out in the vast majority of cases given that only three different plants were responsible for carrying out the instructions and all three were cheek by jowl with their home offices.

Where and what in the way of the engine number was to be stamped on the chassis frames when the engine/transmission assembly was installed in the chassis was also the subject to instructions issued by Ford in Dearborn to all of the assembly plants worldwide. The "where" was to be on top of the chassis frame rail inboard of the left-side foot of the firewall, fully legible in its entirety including the prefix for both LHD and RHD vehicles. On a commercial vehicle or truck frame, that was the only location where the engine number was to be stamped (for fairly obvious reasons). On passenger car chassis, the instructions were to stamp the engine number less the prefix in two other locations on the top of the left side frame rail, one approximately under the 'B' pillar of the body and the other on the forward part of the kick-up for the rear axle.

Were these instructions followed by the dozens of Ford's worldwide assembly plants without exception? Absolutely not, but the exceptions are not that numerous. Ford South Africa, for example, seemed to have its own ideas about which side of the chassis frame the engine number should be stamped, at least part of time during this era. Numerous examples of their production have the engine number stamped on the right side frame rail (following the rest of the instructions to the letter).

Other examples of deviations made around the world include missing one or both of the second and third set of engine numbers on passenger car chassis, the addition of the second and/or third set of engine numbers on commercial vehicle and truck chassis, including the prefix on the second and/or third sect of engine numbers on passenger car chassis, leaving off one or both of the stars at the beginning and ending of the forward set of numbers by the firewall, leaving off the dash between the prefix and the actual engine number, and no doubt others.

But, there's always one thing that can be counted where no alteration of the numbers on the transmissions or frames has occurred, and that is that the actual engine number is 99.999999% likely to be accurate as to the date of when the engine was produced, in sequence with the engines produced before and after it, and was shared with no other engine produced by Ford anywhere in the world in that era.

[koates]

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DavidG. Thanks for taking the time to post that great information. Unlike Rouge engines (No engine number stamped) My Australian 34 coupe V8 engine actually had an engine number stamped on the engine as well as the gearbox housing and right hand chassis rail beside steering box on RHD car. This was a registration requirement here that all engines had to be numbered. My South Africa assembled (Port Elizabeth) 34 V8 RHD sedan is similar to my Australian (Geelong) car except has no engine number stamped just like USA Rouge engines. Both these cars of course are Canadian sourced for many components. Regards, Kevin.

[bobH]

I can't add any tech info to what is already great info posted here, and I'd also thank David G for the great background/research info.
The one thing I might add, is something I discovered while trying to get to bare metal on a frame (that I assumed had NO numbers). And, that is, I was using a body grinder (essentially a 'buffer') with a worn-out grinding disc on it. If I were to guess, I think it was a worn-out 36-grit disc. I was essentially taking off rust, and polishing bare metal. And, this brought out original numbers on the frame rail. This was AFTER I had already hand-sanded, steel-wooled, wiped with vinegar & nitric acid, (and other tricks of the time), and had concluded that there were NO numbers. Just a thought, just another idea.

[DavidG]

bobH raises a good point as the deformation of the steel remains long after the numbers are no longer visible. That fact is well known to law enforcement agencies in determining if serial/engine number have been altered.

koates,

Thanks for adding that at least some of Australian vehicles of the era ended up with numbers on both the engine and transmission and on the right side frame rail, as with the South African vehicles. Both Ford Australia and Ford South Africa were subsidiaries of Ford of Canada at that time.

Of the many RHD vehicles that I've encountered in Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay (and likely Japan) that were U.S. sourced, all have had the engine number stamped on the left side frame rail and all have had the letter F added to the prefix, be it a V-8 or four. The addition of the F to the prefix was also the practice of Ford of Canada when one of its engines was destined to be installed in a RHD chassis in one of the Commonwealth countries.

[Robert/Texas]

Attached (hopefully) is a picture of the serial number on the frame, near the steering box, on my '34 roadster. Note the "40" prefix and mid January '34 serial number. I'm guessing this is one of the exceptions mentioned above.

[DavidG]

Those figures do not conform to the punches used by Ford as shown below. For example, the stars appear to have six points rather than five points and the numbers 1 and 6 are not the versions used by Ford at that time (the old figures in the photo are pre-1932). Equally suspicious is the fact that there are two rows of figures. It would apprear that you have a frame that was stamped or re-stamped by someone other than Ford Motor Company.

[David J]

The 33 5w in my avatar is just like you describe here on the frame # . Star - double ended arrow - 6 digits and star . May production car and the kicker is the tranny has the full number including the 18 . Had a couple other 33's like this in the past also . The 5w serial is 295xxx and one of the other ones I had without "18" or "40" was a 33 roadster serial # 296xxx . Also the 33 I have with the " 40 " prefix on the FRAME is serial # 40-312xxx and is not an early one . Definitely factory stamped and I have encountered this before .

Originally Posted by Ramjet

All, although an old thread, I've got a 33 with stars at each end of the number, althought directly after the first star is a double ended arrow then the 6 digits...........any ideas on this?

[whizzernick]

David
I have a question for you.
You seem to know vast amounts of info on Early Ford v-8's .
Thank you for sharing this info.
Now to my question.
I own 1933 phaeton body #62 frame or ID # is 18- 177212
I have taken picture of it . hope it is readable.
to my knowledge this number falls in 32 numbers.
WHY or How
my answer has been that since my body # 62 is very early the car ended up with a low number.
also does the place car was assembled have anything to do with it.
I believe my phaeton was sold in monterey ca . could the car been assembled Richmond .
thank you for any help
Nick

[Robert/Texas]

DavidG

Good Catch. Do you think that the car may have been assembled out of the country and that could be the reason for the font used for the serial number? My reasoning for thinking this is that the car has the parking brakes on the rear wheels only. I have a copy of an old article from the Ford Times somewhere which has pictures of and describes a system like this on a '32 Ford from Denmark.

Pictures of my brake system attached:

Robert

[DavidG]

Robert,

The existence of a double brake cross shaft, four rear brake rods certainly, and the unique operating arms on the rear brake backing plates confirms that the car was originally intended for sale outside of North America, which of course includes the distinct possibility that it was assembled outside of North America.

A number of countries did not accept Ford's idea of the foot and hand brakes sharing the same set of brakes and insisted that the hand brake be independent of the foot-operated brake. Off the top of my head I do not recall if Denmark was one of them. I have a little doubt though as I imported a '32 convertible sedan from Denmark years ago and it had only the typical single brake cross shaft and a single pair or rear brake rods.

While I'm still troubled by the use of the Star of David rather than a 5-pointed star, I've seen so many variations in the execution of home office instructions over the years that I find an open mind to be the best. The two most dangerous words in the English language are "always" and "never".

[DavidG]

Nick,

I believe that you've isolated the likely reason for the your '33 ending up with a '32 engine/transmission assembly (and its number) rather than a '33 version. The farther away from the source of its manufacture, the more likely an engine/transmission would become out of sequence in its installation in a chassis with its counterparts and the calendar. I purchased a large number of '32-'27 Fords from South America back in the mid 1970s and then again in the mid 1990s and I found that the disparity between the likely date of a car body's manufacture (judging from body numbers and/or degree of incorporated running changes) compared to the date of the manufacture of the engine/transmission to be almost uniformly inconsistent.

Thankfully your phaeton was built in the U.S. as body, chassis, powertrain, and other component sourcing within the U.S. was a lot more straightforward than it was outside of the U.S. Low volume passenger car bodies (the cabriolet, phaeton, and roadster) were all manufactured in the Detroit area by Murray and shipped to the various assembly plants around the U.S. in box cars by rail already fully upholstered and painted. (There are some neat photos in the Ford Archives shown box cars full of bodies of those three open cars.) The only bodies created in the outlying assembly plants were the coupes and sedans. The engine/transmission assemblies and chassis frames were also shipped by rail, but in entirely different box cars from the bodies as each component category required entirely unique dunnage for shipment. Even if box cars with all of the required components were included in the same train, the process of random separation of the components had already begun. It increased depending on the order in which the box cars were unloaded, increased again depending on the inventory levels of the various components inside the assembly plant, and increased yet again if every last item wasn't rigorously ruled by either the FIFO (first in, first out) or LIFO (last in, first out) system of inventory control. We know from Ford's records that neither inventory control system was followed religiously in Dearborn, so it seems safe to believe that it did not occur at Richmond or any other U.S. plant in each and every instance. I believe, therefore, in the distinct possibility that your phaeton's engine number was of a left-over '32 engine that should have been used earlier, but simply wasn't and that it wasn't cost effective to dismantle the engine for service parts or to send it back to Dearborn for them to decide its fate (which would have been a prima facia admission of having screwed up).

I'll end this with a example that I encountered shortly after joining Ford in the Fall of 1964. Adjacent to the office where I worked, the Company had a big fenced-in lot where all of the used company cars from the southeast Michigan area were sent for a determination as to their disposition (i.e. to be sold as used cars to employees or auctioned off to dealers with mileage and condition being the determining criteria). I got to know the fellow responsible for the lot as some interesting cars turned up there from time to time and he let me have the run of the lot on my lunch hour. One day in late October a '49 Fordor sedan showed up on the lot with less than ten miles on the odometer. I asked if he knew the story of where the car had been hiding for fifteen years and he said it had been bricked in behind a wall at the Dearborn assembly plant and some recent changes to the plant had required the wall to be removed and voila, a new '49 Ford saw the light of day once again. Needless to say, I attempted to buy it as it would have been priced for an employee sale as a fifteen-year-old car regardless of the fact that it was a new car, but a determination had already been made that it be put up for a dealer auction, where it doubtless commanded a much fairer price (to the Company). It's a true story and one that helps me remember that the improbable is entirely possible.

[HamerAuto]

Canadian serial numbers are different than american and for V8 cars all started C18 but some had the C18 left off on some. Some serial numbers were also on the right frame rail if the car was right hand drive from the factory. Many things that were not suposed to happen did as people are human. Have never found a frame without a number but some are very light and hard to read.

[Northerner]

Slight hijack but is it possible for '33 chassis/body style with its VIN corresponding toward the back end of the numbering sequence for that model to legitimately show the year as 1934 on the title? In other words, a late 1933 car showing 1934 for the year on the title.

[DavidG]

Northerner,

Absolutely yes!

[Bruce Lancaster]

On that...I have heard (never saw real proof) that some states titled a new car by the year in which it was sold/titled rather than the designated model year. If this is true, early and late cars could overlap either way. That's one source of USA irregularities...each state had its own rules, and tightened up regulations at a different rate.
On the specialized shipping arrangements...go to google advanced patent and look up patent 1803761 to see one of what must have been many specialized shipping setups. Open the PDF for best view.
If you read the old Ford Industries books, you will see that Ford was absolutely nuts about shipping costs and put endless effort into getting as many units into a boxcar as was humanly possible.

[Jason in TX]

Bringing up an old post. I have a 1933 frame with a "40" prefix in the VIN...
So does that suggest a 4 cyl car originally?