chrome dip vs. chrome plating

[PetesPonies]

But in a different environment adhesion is different, no? An oiled, albeit hot, engine is different than wet, cold, hot, UV laden outside. Because what I'm seeing is when pieces are chromed without traditional steps, and subjected to outside issues, they don't hold up. No??

[zzlegend]

Speaking of Jay Leno. Here it is. I am not a true beliver in using this on bumpers or headlight rings, etc. But maybe some dash trim or door panel trim? Or?
But i am still in favor of good old fashion copper, nickel, chrome, if you can find it. California is starting to suck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-1cTpSZ1l8

[PetesPonies]

It will work on a lot of things. It is an expensive process though. The equipment is $$$ I looked into to it several years ago and didn't buy because of the upfront costs.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Thanks ZZ, that's exactly what I thought the guy in the original post was talking about.

Isn't this the same way plastic interior parts have been chromed for many years?

[PetesPonies]

No that is not how plastic parts have been chromed. That is how mirrors have been made.

[dave in australia]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by PetesPonies

But in a different environment adhesion is different, no? An oiled, albeit hot, engine is different than wet, cold, hot, UV laden outside. Because what I'm seeing is when pieces are chromed without traditional steps, and subjected to outside issues, they don't hold up. No??

Well plated chrome adheres no less inside a hot turbine or a cold undercarriage. The inside of a turbine is a lot hotter than a rocker cover of a piston engine. Hot oil splashed around some rocker cover does not affect the plating, it is not like paint. I am a trained, qualified and certified electroplater, I do have some idea of what I am talking about.

[PetesPonies]

Hey garage . . bite me. I don't need your criticism, not wanted at all.

Dave, I have a metallurgy background in my training. I understand some things in this area. This is WHY I keep asking. You have noticed my question marks? I have several items that have been flash chromed, at this moment. I can peel a piece off for you. And if this flash operation is as good as triple plating, then why is triple done in the first place , especially on a new part? And I'm not comparing hot in an engine to hot outside alone . I'm throwing in the UV. That's not a consideration? because if not, it seems everyone has been doing this wrong all the years.

[fordgarage]

Originally Posted by PetesPonies

Hey garage . . bite me. I don't need your criticism, not wanted at all.

Dave, I have a metallurgy background in my training. I understand some things in this area. This is WHY I keep asking. You have noticed my question marks? I have several items that have been flash chromed, at this moment. I can peel a piece off for you. And if this flash operation is as good as triple plating, then why is triple done in the first place , especially on a new part? And I'm not comparing hot in an engine to hot outside alone . I'm throwing in the UV. That's not a consideration? because if not, it seems everyone has been doing this wrong all the years.

UV has absolutely nothing to do with copper/nickel/chrome electroplating performance.

[fordgarage]

Originally Posted by PetesPonies

No that is not how plastic parts have been chromed. That is how mirrors have been made.

Chrome plated plastics are made of ABS.
The ABS part is etched to remove the butadiene and create porosity.
The parts are treated and copper plated to provide a mechanical interlock to the etched plastic substrate, and to provide a metallic base coating.
Then they are nickel plated to provide the color.
They are then chrome plated (near transparent) to provide a hard surface protection for the nickel below.

Yes, chrome plastic parts like a car grille are copper/nickel/chrome over plastic.
A truck bumper is copper/nickel/chrome over a steel stamping.
I already explained how stainless was plated.

This likely won't mean much to you, but others may be interested.

[gweilbaker]

To the original poster,
If you are doing a driver and want to have nice looking bumpers; re-chroming (any process) is comparably more expensive than the Stainless Steel types that are offered by most of the Model A vendors. I've seen powder coat, it looks OK but it doesn't shine like chrome, the cost may sway a decision.
Good luck,
GW

Wow, I just checked the price of stainless bumpers, they went thru the roof! My statement would be good 15 years ago when I bought them.

[Cool Hand Lurker]

Thanks to all of you. This discussion has cleared up a lot of questions I have had on plating. I won't give any tech advice though because I don't want my feelings hurt. I am a very sensitive guy.....

Maybe on these tech issues the posters should give their creds ahead of time so replies can be more useful? Oh jeez, there I go, now somebody is going to hurt my feelings.........

[PetesPonies]

Here is but one example of my experience with a chrome that has not been applied in a three step process. call it what you want . . but here are the results. I believe we all have/have been in touch with items chromed this way. Hundreds of items throughout your home or commercial businesses. I completely understand the reason based on usage and cost . . but I don't want them on the exterior of my vehicles. This is over stainless steel in this example.

[zzlegend]

If it means anything Pete. I restored a couple of Schwin Stingray Bikes a while back. Sent two sets of handlebars out to a local chrome shop. Got them back and while pushing the handgrips on the ends of the bars, there went the chrome curling up and peeling off, just like your picture. No copper, no nickel, just plain shiny steel underneath. You just cant beat a nice copper, nickel, chrome job as far as i am concerened. But its getting scarce here in Cali. Just my two cents.

[fordgarage]

No one ever said that any process would give good results if it was performed incorrectly.

There are lots of things in electroplating which can easily 'go wrong' or be performed wrong including cleanliness, chemicals and concentrations, time, temperatures, voltage, and current.

Peeling chrome is not an indictment of the topic, but of how it was performed on that particular part and process.

[PetesPonies]

I do Stingrays myself I'm trying to sort info here my. When I see a hard chromed part, I know there are no anodic layers to help with long term exposure. In a mechanical setting ( engine or such as I have brought up earlier ) those conditions are different. Oil will help keep the rusting processes controlled. But when parts are exposed to the outside weather conditions, anodic layers are needed. That is why , I thought, hard chroming was saved for stainless and other similar metal alloys that don't need the same anodic properties. But when hard chroming is done on my "normal" steels, it is a cheap coating at best. That is what I would like explained to me, and it is why I thought hard chromes is extensively considered an "engineering" finish rather than an exterior finish. Exterior finish is what we all want on out cars.

[28RPU]

Originally Posted by fordgarage

Chrome plated plastics are made of ABS.
The ABS part is etched to remove the butadiene and create porosity.
The parts are treated and copper plated to provide a mechanical interlock to the etched plastic substrate, and to provide a metallic base coating.
Then they are nickel plated to provide the color.
They are then chrome plated (near transparent) to provide a hard surface protection for the nickel below.

Yes, chrome plastic parts like a car grille are copper/nickel/chrome over plastic.
A truck bumper is copper/nickel/chrome over a steel stamping.
I already explained how stainless was plated.

This likely won't mean much to you, but others may be interested.

Question: A few years back I got some plastic dash board items for a 67 Ford "rechromed" as they were chrome before. The company in Texas that did it (beautiful,by the way) told me they put the plastic in a vacuum chamber and pipe in powered aluminum dust to simulate chrome plating. Was he doing it a different way back then or are they many methods of doing it? I dont see how you can "plate" plastic since it can't attract the metallic particles.

[PetesPonies]

They still "chrome" plastic in the same way you describe, BUT, there are newer techniques used today as well. Some of the plastic coatings are pretty damn cool, the way they are applied. Covering are applied in water . . to name one technique and it gives you the ability to cover in a "chrome" look or about any other look you want.

[fordgarage]

Originally Posted by 28RPU

Question: A few years back I got some plastic dash board items for a 67 Ford "rechromed" as they were chrome before. The company in Texas that did it (beautiful,by the way) told me they put the plastic in a vacuum chamber and pipe in powered aluminum dust to simulate chrome plating. Was he doing it a different way back then or are they many methods of doing it? I dont see how you can "plate" plastic since it can't attract the metallic particles.

Vacuum metallization is a process for applying via vapor deposition a thin layer of aluminum to a plastic. It is typically used for automotive lamp reflectors, even in cheap plastic flashlights.

Its main feature is its very high reflectivity, approaching silver, but it is very fragile and is also sensitive to environmental and chemical vapor exposure. It works reasonably well in sealed (tyvek vented) automotive headlamps, and is currently how most reflectors are finished for the last 20 years.

Chrome plated plastics are done as I described earlier. The plastic is first etched to create a porous surface to bond to, and it is treated with a tin/paladium catalyst to make it electrically active for the copper plating strike.

It is triple chrome plated, essentially the same as a metal part like zinc or steel.

If it is truly chrome plated, the primary reason the chrome peels is due to failure of the interface between the plastic and the copper. This is usually related to improper etching of the plastic resulting in the "wrong" porosity size and density of the etched surface.

Also, plated plastic is also sensitive to differential thermal expansion rates between the plastic and metal finish. They expand and contract at different rates during temperature changes, and this exerts additional stress on the bond interface.

[PetesPonies]

This is one of the processes to which I was referring. Your finish is basically limited to whatever you can have printed on the coating, thus limitless. They do a wood finish in the video, but a reflective mylar looks like chrome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIBiG_u0_wA

[fordgarage]

Originally Posted by PetesPonies

This is one of the processes to which I was referring. Your finish is basically limited to whatever you can have printed on the coating, thus limitless. They do a wood finish in the video, but a reflective mylar looks like chrome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIBiG_u0_wA

Pete,
Based on your many posts, you seem to have an extremely loose definition of the word 'chrome'.

However, chrome is not the many other things you have been talking about.

Chrome is a very specific material, which can be made to exhibit several appearances.
High luster bright chrome is the finish appearance primarily used on the Model A and most other automotive applications, in addition to a few satin and butler finish versions.

And FYI, mylar is polyester film.
It is not chrome, it does not look anything like chrome, and it cannot be chrome plated.
But if it is close enough for you, great!