Engine temp rises when I get to cruise speed

[The Brassworks]

Originally Posted by KiWinUS

Will you just replace the core for Joe with as big of core as will fit? Simple question

Yes; it is a simple question. Perhaps I would have earlier but I will not now.

Joe was presented with a core and puller fan and specifically instructed me in writing to build the same core with a pusher because he "did not have room" for a puller. I did not measure this for him or dissuade him from buying a large core. He has a large personality which I presume comes from competence; I will not make this mistake again. We made what he ordered and he wants to reduce his supercharged flathead 10 degrees at ~50-40mph. This can likely be done if Joe listened.

Joe has not listened, he talks out both sides of his mouth and he has used this forum to disparage our product and me personally. This is an unregulated platform that stands forever and our business suffers from this. Joe knows this and people have made comments to this effect. Its an effective strategy for unprincipled people.

Perhaps this is not what you expected to hear. You want to hear the customer is always right. I wish this were the case and if this statement causes you to change your opinion of me or the company, I completely understand.

[KiWinUS]

[QUOTE=The Brassworks;2150421]Yes; it is a simple question. Perhaps I would have earlier but I will not now.
Seems like was a tough question for you to answer but as I stated “ a simple question needing a simple answer “
Thanks for the enlightening answer.
Cheers

[The Brassworks]

[QUOTE=KiWinUS;2150422]

Originally Posted by The Brassworks

Yes; it is a simple question. Perhaps I would have earlier but I will not now.
Seems like was a tough question for you to answer but as I stated “ a simple question needing a simple answer “
Thanks for the enlightening answer.
Cheers

Yup, that's the thing. The devil is in the details.

[ford38v8]

Lee at Brassworks,

Many if not most of here are old codgers, set in our ways, opinionated. We hear what we want to hear and ignore those who don't agree with our thinking. My wife bought me a coffee cup that reads: MR. RIGHT. She knows me well.
We see a lot of miscommunication right here on this thread, some advice that was discounted from the git go, some that was agreed to but postponed, some that was not acknowledged, and of course, some from guys that didn't read the previous posts.
I know, it's hard to swallow getting badmouthed, especially under these difficult conditions. That said, and particularly true because of these conditions, my considered opinion is that a compromise offer on your part would go a tremendous way toward restoring what I'm sure was a good reputation till this unfortunate incident. I and more than a few others here hope you see it our way!

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by The Brassworks

Patience Princess, I am trying to type and do payroll.

I'm not one to tell anybody how to run their business, but was this comment really necessary? "Patience Princess"?

Talk about demeaning to somebody who is one of the best in the world of high-performance flatheads. Peeing on his shoes accomplished nothing of value for anybody.

PS: I just referred a very close personal friend to you today (to make a custom radiator for a vintage car) - so I wish you (and him) well. With that said, it is hard for us on the Barn to stomach your attitude on this specific conversation.

1) Fans, Fans, Fans: Explain to me how a better fan is going to help his cooling at cruise speed? All this talk about pushers/pullers, CFM this, CFM that - what the heck does it have to do with a car going down the road at 50 mph? I've yet to hear an explanation that is viable - so bring it to the table?

2) Why We're All on the Barn: The fact is that most everybody on this forum is here to HELP one another. None of us have all the answers - so we try to work through problems and seek out solutions. At the same time, this body of folks has more expertise on vintage flathead engines than any public place you'll find. Joe came here for help - he seems to be willing to work through issues . . . that is why we care about his problems and hope that a solution is found.

What we've not heard from you is the fact that MAYBE his radiator won't cool his engine . . . and that you're willing to work with him to sort it out. THAT would be good for Joe, good for Brassworks and we'd all say that "Lee is a solid dude and he compromised for the good of all". Wouldn't that be a good position to be in?

All we're hearing is that everything is Joe's fault . . . while he may not be perfect (none are), those of us with experience have reasonable suspicions about the ability of THIS particular radiator to cool his engine - regardless of any dang fan you put on it. If the core/capacity of the radiator is not up to the task - there is NOTHING that any fan will do to help it. So, WHAT can he do to figure out the basics? Me - I'd take ALL fans off and take the car on the road . . . remove those variables.

Work with him, work with us . . . let's get him a "cool car" going down the road.

What is so hard about finding a solution FIRST, then determining how best to pay for it.

[Tinker]

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Maybe has spent too much time on twitter. Hearts and minds... not social media troll warfare.

"I'm not one to tell anybody how to run their business, but was this comment really necessary? "Patience Princess"?

Talk about demeaning to somebody who is one of the best in the world of high-performance flatheads. Peeing on his shoes accomplished nothing of value for anybody."


I'll give it to them for not running away. Discussion is good. i'm sure edelbrock has taken a few lumps over the years. Nor am I saying Vic never called anyone a princess. I couldn't possibly know that.


See how this plays out I guess.


Bored your last two sentences make a lot of sense. R&D and the company doesn't have to build the motor. Free testers and developers in real world situations. Done all the time in the video game industry. Beta testers. Nothing new.


Major car companies don't go into racing to sell a 4 door sedan. They do it to gain a reputation of being a leader and developing their vehicles. Keeping them competitive.


I'm not sure how this all got started. but if advertised as ... (joes word)
"The Brassworks radiator was supposed to be built for my blower motor. I know it's 3 core, but that's about all I know technically. It's not an exact 35 replica, but a "street rod" version"


If it wasn't advertised (if it was), well this whole thread is stupid. Nothing is perfect in this world. If you sold hundreds or thousands of them to guys with blowers and this is the only one. Refund and walk away. I appreciate what your do and glad you make what you do. I won't have a blower flathead. So it doesn't effect your product in my mind.




.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Ronnieroadster

Joe what lousy a way to spend your summer. Experimenting and spending more money trying to fix a problem that's caused by a very poor quality radiator. What you just wrote about the support rod mount needing repair on a new radiator after only 10 miles that repair expense should have been covered by brassworks.
I can tell you when I experienced an issue with the radiator I received from CAR after many months of use. All they asked I do is have it fixed locally and submit the bill to them. Some company's are interested in service and future sales its obvious brassworks in not one of them.
Ronnieroadster

I know it's part of the hobby, but I would equate this situation to the crappy part of the hobby. I'll try the Flex puller fan and see what happens.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by The Brassworks

Still not listening. Still not understanding.

High speed overheating is rarely a fan problem and more frequently trapped air which in your case is causing heat soak.

Twice I suggested you remove the shroud, mount the puller fan you have and get numbers. If it improves and you seek more cooling, position the SPAL fan pusher higher and the Cooling components puller fan lower to prevent the heat soak at 50-40 mph (and get more numbers). If you still want more cooling swap the Cooing components for a higher cfm SPAL fan.

We keep talking through this and you told me you would do this twice and you did not do it. You called cooling components and they told you to cut holes in the shroud to free air. You instead fixate on two fans and went on this forum to rant. You also want to buying fans with advertised cfms that likely come from a controlled lab environment and not the real world. Something we discussed and I thought you understood.

I can't help you if you won't listen and when you talk sh*t on this forum about me it makes me not want to. Apologies if this candor offends the delicate sensibilities of the forum.

I contacted the manufacturer to see if they had any input and they did. Their input didn't work so now I've removed the fan and shroud and I'll be installing a puller
My mom passed away last week from a long battle with dementia so I'm in the process of moving my father in with us and getting their house ready for sale. I also work two jobs so time is not very plentiful for me.
I get a couple of hours here and there and if the weather doesn't cooperate, I cant do any testing.
I do understand the cfm thing, but figured it would get me closer than the spal advertised 2024 cfm
We'll see. BTW, I'm not talking $hit, just relaying talking points

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Ziggster

That’s a really interesting blade design. Never seen anything like it before. I’m not sure about the claims of slicing through the air easier as it has more surface area due to the rippled edge. Remember all these claims of airflow are at 0”H2O static pressure (i.e. no resistance). Those values are really meaningless as all real world scenarios involve some kind of resistance. What’s important is how much air will the fan will move at the corresponding resistance (pressure drop) across the radiator and any other obstructions. You’ll only know once you test it.

Totally understood

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by The Brassworks

The SPAL dimensions were all called out on the original order we sent. They're also online everywhere. Why would you be surprised. I offered to send you a fan for trial.

We also had an extensive conversation yesterday about fans and stated/advertised cfms and you elected to go with a flex-a-lite. You went your own way again.

I seriously cannot believe you.

Sorry, but I don't remember you offering me a test fan. You mention you thought you had one somewhere, but never said Hey Joe let me send you a test fan so we can figure this out. That was never said
There's a lot of pulleys and belts and nuts behind the radiator which I'm sure everyone's aware of. It's very hard for me to picture how it would fit.
When I had the CCI fan/shroud and radiator removed I slid a spal pusher in there and it fit. When I say fit I mean there's an 1/8 of an inch between the motor and the blower snout but it does fit

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by The Brassworks

Thanks for the advice.

We have been trying to help Joe but Joe won't help himself. We have tried from the start but Joe has not listened and won't listen. He has been on this forum ever for a purpose other than getting his engine temperature down 10 degrees.

Perhaps you do not see it but I do.

Pompously yours,

Lee

Joe is doing the best he can to figure this out. I have done everything you asked except buy a spal fan.
10 degrees is a factor with a blown engine and I only know that from the experience of the amazing people on this forum.

[sshep]

"The way we generally strive for rights is by getting our fighting blood up; and I venture to say that is the long way and not the short way. If you come at me with your fists doubled, I think I can promise you that mine will double as fast as yours; but if you come to me and say, “Let us sit down and take counsel together, and, if we differ from one another, understand why it is that we differ from one another, just what the points at issue are,” we will presently find that we are not so far apart after all, that the points on which we differ are few and the points on which we agree are many, and that if we only have the patience and the candor and the desire to get together, we will get together."


Woodrow Wilson

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by The Brassworks

Yes; it is a simple question. Perhaps I would have earlier but I will not now.

Joe was presented with a core and puller fan and specifically instructed me in writing to build the same core with a pusher because he "did not have room" for a puller.

Wrong again.
I never instructed anyone on what to build and simply told you I didn't have room for a puller. Once again, THAT DOES NOT MEAN I DONT HAVE ROOM FOR A LARGER CORE!!!


I did not measure this for him or dissuade him from buying a large core.

You also never asked

He has a large personality which I presume comes from competence; I will not make this mistake again. We made what he ordered and he wants to reduce his supercharged flathead 10 degrees at ~50-40mph. This can likely be done if Joe listened.

You never offered a larger core!
You never said So you're telling me you have no room for a puller fan, how much room do you have?
I know you have a blown Flathead and we all know Flatheads can run hot.
Let me use my experience to point you in the right direction
None of this happened so please don't say it did

Joe has not listened, he talks out both sides of his mouth and he has used this forum to disparage our product and me personally. This is an unregulated platform that stands forever and our business suffers from this. Joe knows this and people have made comments to this effect. Its an effective strategy for unprincipled people.

Sorry, but you got the wrong guy. When I spend money on a product I expect a little more than do this, try that, fix this, use this fan. I am trying everything you asked me to do.
wish this were the case and if this statement causes you to change your opinion of me or the company, I completely understand.

I also run a business and YES, the customer may not always be right, but we try to cater to them the best we can. We spend countless hours trying to get the details right including losing money if need be to make them happy

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

I'm not one to tell anybody how to run their business, but was this comment really necessary? "Patience Princess"?

Talk about demeaning to somebody who is one of the best in the world of high-performance flatheads. Peeing on his shoes accomplished nothing of value for anybody.

PS: I just referred a very close personal friend to you today (to make a custom radiator for a vintage car) - so I wish you (and him) well. With that said, it is hard for us on the Barn to stomach your attitude on this specific conversation.

1) Fans, Fans, Fans: Explain to me how a better fan is going to help his cooling at cruise speed? All this talk about pushers/pullers, CFM this, CFM that - what the heck does it have to do with a car going down the road at 50 mph? I've yet to hear an explanation that is viable - so bring it to the table?

2) Why We're All on the Barn: The fact is that most everybody on this forum is here to HELP one another. None of us have all the answers - so we try to work through problems and seek out solutions. At the same time, this body of folks has more expertise on vintage flathead engines than any public place you'll find. Joe came here for help - he seems to be willing to work through issues . . . that is why we care about his problems and hope that a solution is found.

What we've not heard from you is the fact that MAYBE his radiator won't cool his engine . . . and that you're willing to work with him to sort it out. THAT would be good for Joe, good for Brassworks and we'd all say that "Lee is a solid dude and he compromised for the good of all". Wouldn't that be a good position to be in?

All we're hearing is that everything is Joe's fault . . . while he may not be perfect (none are), those of us with experience have reasonable suspicions about the ability of THIS particular radiator to cool his engine - regardless of any dang fan you put on it. If the core/capacity of the radiator is not up to the task - there is NOTHING that any fan will do to help it. So, WHAT can he do to figure out the basics? Me - I'd take ALL fans off and take the car on the road . . . remove those variables.

Work with him, work with us . . . let's get him a "cool car" going down the road.

What is so hard about finding a solution FIRST, then determining how best to pay for it.

B&S, Very well said and thank you for all your help and standing with me.
Thank you, Joe

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Tinker

Maybe has spent too much time on twitter. Hearts and minds... not social media troll warfare.

"I'm not one to tell anybody how to run their business, but was this comment really necessary? "Patience Princess"?

Talk about demeaning to somebody who is one of the best in the world of high-performance flatheads. Peeing on his shoes accomplished nothing of value for anybody."


I'll give it to them for not running away. Discussion is good. i'm sure edelbrock has taken a few lumps over the years. Nor am I saying Vic never called anyone a princess. I couldn't possibly know that.


See how this plays out I guess.


Bored your last two sentences make a lot of sense. R&D and the company doesn't have to build the motor. Free testers and developers in real world situations. Done all the time in the video game industry. Beta testers. Nothing new.


Major car companies don't go into racing to sell a 4 door sedan. They do it to gain a reputation of being a leader and developing their vehicles. Keeping them competitive.


I'm not sure how this all got started. but if advertised as ... (joes word)
"The Brassworks radiator was supposed to be built for my blower motor. I know it's 3 core, but that's about all I know technically. It's not an exact 35 replica, but a "street rod" version"


If it wasn't advertised (if it was), well this whole thread is stupid. Nothing is perfect in this world. If you sold hundreds or thousands of them to guys with blowers and this is the only one. Refund and walk away. I appreciate what your do and glad you make what you do. I won't have a blower flathead. So it doesn't effect your product in my mind.




.

Tinker, I relied on the knowledge of the builder. All I'm saying is I told Lee I had a blown Flathead with no room for a puller fan. What he made for me as far as I'm concerned is not the radiator for this set up.
Let's see if this Flex-a-lite fan helps at all. If not we're unfortunately back to square one
Thanks Joe

[jrvariel48]

I just want to say thank you to everyone that's following this thread and supporting what it's all about.
I never claimed to be the smartest, most intellectual, well spoken guy. I don't have a quarter of experience as most here on the Barn.
I got into this hobby because I love cars, especially Flatheads
I don't want to create tension between people or hurt anyone's business or feelings.
I just want to drive my car.
Thanks again,
Joe

[The Brassworks]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

I'm not one to tell anybody how to run their business, but was this comment really necessary? "Patience Princess"?

Talk about demeaning to somebody who is one of the best in the world of high-performance flatheads. Peeing on his shoes accomplished nothing of value for anybody.

PS: I just referred a very close personal friend to you today (to make a custom radiator for a vintage car) - so I wish you (and him) well. With that said, it is hard for us on the Barn to stomach your attitude on this specific conversation.

1) Fans, Fans, Fans: Explain to me how a better fan is going to help his cooling at cruise speed? All this talk about pushers/pullers, CFM this, CFM that - what the heck does it have to do with a car going down the road at 50 mph? I've yet to hear an explanation that is viable - so bring it to the table?

2) Why We're All on the Barn: The fact is that most everybody on this forum is here to HELP one another. None of us have all the answers - so we try to work through problems and seek out solutions. At the same time, this body of folks has more expertise on vintage flathead engines than any public place you'll find. Joe came here for help - he seems to be willing to work through issues . . . that is why we care about his problems and hope that a solution is found.

What we've not heard from you is the fact that MAYBE his radiator won't cool his engine . . . and that you're willing to work with him to sort it out. THAT would be good for Joe, good for Brassworks and we'd all say that "Lee is a solid dude and he compromised for the good of all". Wouldn't that be a good position to be in?

All we're hearing is that everything is Joe's fault . . . while he may not be perfect (none are), those of us with experience have reasonable suspicions about the ability of THIS particular radiator to cool his engine - regardless of any dang fan you put on it. If the core/capacity of the radiator is not up to the task - there is NOTHING that any fan will do to help it. So, WHAT can he do to figure out the basics? Me - I'd take ALL fans off and take the car on the road . . . remove those variables.

Work with him, work with us . . . let's get him a "cool car" going down the road.

What is so hard about finding a solution FIRST, then determining how best to pay for it.

Apologies for the Patience Princess response. I don't know Ronnieroadster other than his comments on this thread. I was in the middle of a phone call, typing and getting a payroll finalized. He was flaming on a forum and I should have just ignored him because his comment wasn't relevant.

Joe's principal concern is occurring at high speed e.g. 60mph and the recovery at 50-40 mph. I have said it and said it and said it again. It is not the fans that I suspect, its the shroud. The shroud manufacturer suspects the same because they recommended Joe remove the plastic trim core area blocking the core, raise the fan and vent the solid parts of the fan shroud. I go a step further and say remove the shroud entirely. You should keep a fan (puller recommended, pusher if you can't fit one) because you need it when you come of the highway and this is exactly where Joe is not recovering e.g. heat soaking. The absence a fan will create a problem at ~38-40 mph and below because of limited airflow. What I recommend regarding fans is maximizing cfm however, I am dubious of many of the claims made by electric fan manufacturers which is why I only recommend SPAL. He may get the cfm with his cooling components fan and no shroud or he may get there with the flex-a-lite puller or he may get there with a combination of a SPAL pusher and a puller. Its not the brand but the maximum cfm that matters at the speed where he is not recovering.

I have been working with Joe on the phone and messaging on instagram. Presently he is removing the fan and shroud and trying a different one. This removal of the fan I recommended but he is spending more money without gathering information first. This again is his decision.

The reason you don't hear me say its the radiator core is that he has not removed the shroud, what I suspect is the root of problem yet and provided numbers. Until he reports back, I can speak to the radiator and this engine .

The face area of a 1935 Ford radiator is ~379 square inches. A 1951 ford radiator face area is ~440 square inches and a 1951 Mercury is ~475. Joe's pairing of this engine to this radiator space sacrifices 14% - 20% of face area right out of the gate because of the engine - car design.

The core Joe ordered was thicker than the '51 but it has 90% of the cubic area of the '51 radiator and ~80% of '51 Mercury. The core he ordered also has has more tubes, better geometry of tube and a comparable fin density. In a nutshell, he is one step backward and a little bit forward but Joe also added heat demands with his supercharger and has "unknown" demands from tinkering with the engine timing, thermostats, fluid composition etc. Perhaps this is where Ronnieroadster can help him.

Joe and I discussed engine temperatures and ranges and Joe tells me he would accept a 200 degree top end on his 51 flathead with a supercharger. I think this is reasonable expectation and achievable. I know we all want 180 degrees all the time but the reality is engines operate at a range and the high and low end and both ends matter. It is also a reality that there are numerous engine temperatures on the engine so you may cause an undue concern based on where you take the temperature from. Settle down forum, I am not saying Joe's concern is undue. He is seeing 210 and wants 200. He is 10 degrees from being satisfied with his upper bound engine temperature and I think he can get there without a new core or buying more fans (which he keeps doing). I am also more interested in the 50-40mph temperatures because this will trigger recommendation 2, the addition of more cfm for recovery. Joe says he will not do this, again, his decision.

I think he's closer to his goal than he realizes but as told him, I don't think he is going to be a 180 degree flathead based on the pairing and mods he has made and he agreed.

[The Brassworks]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

I just want to say thank you to everyone that's following this thread and supporting what it's all about.
I never claimed to be the smartest, most intellectual, well spoken guy. I don't have a quarter of experience as most here on the Barn.
I got into this hobby because I love cars, especially Flatheads
I don't want to create tension between people or hurt anyone's business or feelings.
I just want to drive my car.
Thanks again,
Joe

I just want to say thank you to everyone that's following this thread and supporting what it's all about.
I never claimed to be the smartest, most intellectual, well spoken guy. I don't have a quarter of experience as most here on the Barn.
I got into this hobby because I love cars, and have to feed my family
I don't want to create tension between people or hurt anyone's feelings.
I just want to survive the fordbarn forum
Thanks again,
Lee

[Bored&Stroked]

Hey Lee, just want to let you know that I appreciate the detailed response and also the fact that you had your feathers ruffled a bit and you've come back to the site of the "ruffling" and brought some positive and constructive thoughts/ideas.

In the end, that is what we're all here for and hopefully Joe can get his car cooling as it needs to cool. With a few more tests (changing one variable at a time), we'll all have a better understanding of the situation and what options he has to deal with it.

Also, the vast majority of us on this site are not here to flame anybody - we all have a likeminded passion and we're trying to help one another out. Also, we depend on a host of vendors to supply the parts/expertise we need to keep these old beasts on the road. That is about it . . . so you'll survive.

Take care,
B&S

[KiWinUS]

Great response both Lee and Dale #197 & #199
Let’s keep the positive dialogue going. Thanks.