Weiand-style head.

[Tod]

As I peck away at this Weiand-style head over the next few weeks/months I'd like to get a feel for how many castings I will need to order for the first run. Let me know if you are interested in a 7:1, 8:1, or 9:1. I think the first run will be aluminum only.


7:1 will be the crow foot chamber (which I also use in my Winfield heads), and the 8 and 9:1 chambers will be a remote cross between a Thomas and a crow foot chamber.



Tod

[nkaminar]

Hi Tod,

Thanks for popping up on the Barn. Can that head use the stock distributor? How is your engine coming? It has 3 main bearings and cast of aluminum, right?

[Tod]

Originally Posted by nkaminar

Hi Tod,

Thanks for popping up on the Barn. Can that head use the stock distributor? How is your engine coming? It has 3 main bearings and cast of aluminum, right?

Yes,a stock distributor should work fine. There is more room around the distributor area on this than the Thomas heads, and the ribs are lower. I have several engines under way for test builds, with some of my new heads, and the 3 main will be mostly iron, even though aluminum is also under way.


Tod

[Benson]

Tod,



Several years ago I bought one of your Weiand heads in cast iron from Berts.


What is the compression on these dudes?


Thanks

[Tod]

Originally Posted by Benson

Tod,



Several years ago I bought one of your Weiand heads in cast iron from Berts.


What is the compression on these dudes?


Thanks

That would have been a Winfield head. I have been wanting to do this head for quite a while, but I have a lot going on all the time.


This one will use the same 7:1 crow foot chamber as the Winfield, but the 8 and 9:1 chamber will be a cross between a crow foot and Thomas look. With 5 main blocks available 8 and 9:1 compression should be no problem at all.


Tod

[Benson]

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Tod,


Thanks.


Yes it is a Winfield my mistake.



I ran an original Aluminum Thomas 8.25 head back in the 60s. But the worn out Model A block did not take too well to the high compression.


It was a good runner for a while. But it was necessary to pull shims a couple of times.




I needed money and friend offered me 10 times what I paid for it 30 years earlier.


I put the Police Head i.e. the "Head with the Large B" back on the rebuilt B block.

[updraught]

I take it that 9:1 will need to use standard valves rather than oversize to fit them in the snugish combustion chamber?

》》With 5 main blocks available 8 and 9:1 compression should be no problem at all.

Good point that!

Any chance of a 9:1 Winfield ? It looks more period correct to me.

[old31]

I am curious.

If a 6.1 produces 17 more HP, then how much more HP does a 7.1 and a 8.1 and a 9.1 produce?

[Tim Ayers]

Following. I'm very interested in a high compression head (8-1 or 9-1) and a 5 main block.

I'm new to bangers. Can you make a center cap strap like many do on 3 main V8 block?

[Benson]

About over sized valves.

After I sold the Thomas head we found that the over sized valves on his engine were hitting the sides of the combustion chambers as they came up.

Some machine work on head chambers provided the needed clearance.


We were aware of this possibility and checked for interference before running the engine.

[jack backer]

Is there a difference in the Burtz deck to increase air flow? .5 mains should take the thump but what about scavenging the cylinder?

[Tod]

Originally Posted by updraught

I take it that 9:1 will need to use standard valves rather than oversize to fit them in the snugish combustion chamber?

》》With 5 main blocks available 8 and 9:1 compression should be no problem at all.

Good point that!

Any chance of a 9:1 Winfield ? It looks more period correct to me.

A 9:1 Winfield would be very simple.


Tod

[Terry Burtz, Calif]

Originally Posted by jack backer

Is there a difference in the Burtz deck to increase air flow? .5 mains should take the thump but what about scavenging the cylinder?

The new cylinder block deck is identical to a stock Model A engine and stock size (1.50 inch) valves are used. Oversize valves can be installed.

The intake ports are larger and the same size as Model B intake ports.

The new engine intake ports have fewer bends from the manifold surface to the underside of the valve so the ports should flow better.

If oversize valves are used, they may be close to the combustion chamber walls, shrouded, and not flow as well as stock-size valves.

Flow-bench testing is needed to find the optimal combination.

The bottom end of the "New Engine" should easily handle the loads from any head.

Tod, good luck with your new head.

[Dan McEachern]

Tod- any thought to undercutting the side walls of the chamber around the intake valves to minimize shrouding or increase the wall thickness enough on the water jacket side to allow unshrouding the valve area without worry of breaking through?

[Tod]

Originally Posted by Dan McEachern

Tod- any thought to undercutting the side walls of the chamber around the intake valves to minimize shrouding or increase the wall thickness enough on the water jacket side to allow unshrouding the valve area without worry of breaking through?

Not at first.



Tod

[Pete]

I have often wondered why "head" people always seem to think they have to have some ancient name associated with a new product. Are they so unsure it will work that they have to hide behind an antique name? If you take an old design and modify it to improve it then you say it is similar to the old design. If you change it enough, you name it anything you want..There are many names associated with model A heads and combustion chamber designs. Most did not work very well. Some had mediocre success. Some were touted as excellent but those were still mediocre compared to what is available today due to modern research and development.
No one is offering a head with a modern chamber design these days.
Using a modern chamber design, 11 or 12 to 1 is easily achieved on a new casting or billet. Of course E85 would have to be the fuel for these pressures but it is available many places now. Even higher ratios could be achieved for racing.

It is sad that Larry Brumfield died early. His new head might have changed the world.

[updraught]

If Terry and Tod made their blocks look like a Ferrari block and the redesigned heads looked like a Briggs and Stratton then it wouldn't be up to much!
What does a 12 to one flat head look like?

[Randall]

Here’s one I got a while back

[Pete]

Originally Posted by updraught

What does a 12 to one flat head look like?

Look At a B&S dragster engine or a Harley KR flat track engine.
They are similar.

[updraught]

This was on ebay, a hot rod mag from the early fifties. It is to do with early V8 heads, but deals with raising the compression. Just for interest ...
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/-6EAA...nj/s-l1600.jpg

[alexiskai]

Originally Posted by updraught

This was on ebay, a hot rod mag from the early fifties. It is to do with early V8 heads, but deals with raising the compression. Just for interest ...
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/-6EAA...nj/s-l1600.jpg

Nice to see someone just putting clear numbers out there.

[Synchro909]

IMO, Larger inlet valves are not needed in Terry's new engine. Being new, the valve seats have not had a chance to recede into the block so gas flow is better than an old block there. The inlet tract has also been improved (the change cannot be seen from outside) which again, improves gas flow.
I had everything ready to go with larger inlets but changed my mind. I was not looking for a racing engine, rather something with more stamina for towing. Flexibility is important so I backed off on the valves. I run a 6:1 cast iron head, Webber carburettor, a modified B grind on the cam. (0.308" lift) and an original distributor. To limit the advance (to 22°), I made a bracket which I screwed to the side of the distributor. It has a screw in it that stops the top plate at 22° like an idle stop on the carburettor with no sponginess like I would expect from putting a clamp on the lever quadrant. I rune the lever in one of two positions - "town" and "country". ie, part advance or full advance. I am very happy with the result. I get better fuel economy at 85 kph than at 75. (53 vs 47 mph) Given these cars are as streamlined as a house brick, the drag at 85 is much greater than at 75, yet the economy is better. About 22 mp(US)galon vs about 20. I figure that is about the speed where cam, compression and carburettor all come together to work properly. It is easy to overdo things in there. I decided to go with standard valves partly because I could see that larger valves wouldn't give much benefit because they would be shielded to a greater degree than standard ones. Besides, it would have affected warranty and the hardened seat were already fitted.
We run 91 octane non ethanol fuel.

[Chris Haynes]

Originally Posted by updraught

This was on ebay, a hot rod mag from the early fifties. It is to do with early V8 heads, but deals with raising the compression. Just for interest ...
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/-6EAA...nj/s-l1600.jpg

I wish it was not so fuzzy and hard to read. Could you scan it instead of a picture?

[Tod]

Update: I started CNC cutting the tooling for this Weiand head today. It will take a few days to finish the pattern since I have other customer tooling I am cutting as well. Right now I have 3 different jobs taking up space in the one machine, with more waiting in line. I will be using 3D printed sand for the water jacket so I can get into testing asap. 2 of the chambers will be chambers that are proved to be very good, and the 9:1 chamber will be made last.


Tod

[Tod]

Sneak peek at the finish pass being cut on the Weiand style prototype pattern.


Tod

[Tod]

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And here is the Weiand style head pattern with a first coat of pattern lacquer. I think it came out fine.



This will serve nicely to make prototypes.


Tod

[Flathead]

Very interesting, thanks for sharing your work.

[Tod]

Here is the Weiand style prototype pattern with a second coat of Pattern lacquer. Material is ready to cut the first of 4 combustion chamber options for these heads. The 8:1 option will be my own take on a Thomas style chamber. The 6 and 7:1 chambers will be what I offer in my Winfield heads, and are fashioned after the original Weiand and Winfield chambers. I have a chamber that is used in my Stock Top Crow Foot heads that will also work under this head. The first run of these looks to be spoken for as of now, unless I pour more castings, but I think I will keep it at 6 for now.


Tod