American Vs. South America Tudor Phaeton

[Dweber]

Is there a easy way to determine if a Tudor phaeton was made in the United States or South America? Besides being right hand drive? Are the dimensions the same on both bodies? My father years ago had a Tudor phaeton from South America and it was worn out ten times over.

[john charlton]

Apart from the RHD configeration the bodies are the same in every respect . I have an early 1931 180 A RHD imported from Argentina first to Ireland then to England . The body and wood is in good condition but the mechanics wore out front to back but the trans had all new gears . There is a picture in a long ago "Restorer" showing a line up of 180 A s at the dock in Montevideo Uruguay bound for the USA i guess . Sadly many were converted to LHD in some cases the body was fitted to a complete running LHD frame . The frames were drilled for the RHD steering box the other left side was not drilled . It is easy to check if the frame is original as it will still have the holes for the RHD steering box in the frame . Maybe back in the day it was easier rather than drilling holes in the right place in the frame . I am sure Vince Falters site has the BA Argentina plant production figures but I cant find them but very low RHD numbers .

John in dull weather West Drayton London England .

[ronn]

look at the screw heads on the wood- square or slotted?

[Jim/GA]

Originally Posted by ronn

look at the screw heads on the wood- square or slotted?

No, that does not work. The countries in Latin America were not in the British Commonwealth, so they did not get their vehicle parts sourced from a Canadian plant (like Australia and other places did).

[rotorwrench]

The Ford Rouge plant built a lot of right had drive model A vehicles. They would send them out in knock down form for reassembly at the destination. Part of the reason Ford of Canada came into being was the rules of automobile sales to Commonwealth countries. The Pacheco plant (Laboca) dates back to 1913 but it was mostly an assembly plant for knockdowns in that era. It was much later when they started to build vehicles there.

[Oldbluoval]

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Right hand drive or conversion is the give away. However, I’ve run across SA 180a that had divergent configurations. For example, later interior handles and latches. I heard ford produced the 180a into the late 1930’s. Using inventory items as they were available.
I think the open cars remained popular in the SA warmer climate than the USA.

This could be urban legend but some of this I have seen. Granted SA cars were driven and repaired way beyond USA. So later repair parts could have been exchanged

[ronn]

OK Jim, I hear ya. so then what types of screws were used on the south American cars?


I have a Canadian built phaeton with square slots. It def is an export car with everything on the right side. Also an early 28.....

[rotorwrench]

I think by the time the LaBoca assembly plant was set into production. They were building 20% of the cars that were being assembled. The more they could build there, the less that they had to send down from the Rouge. This could account for the differences in some parts. The Robertson screws were a Canadian thing but Ford USA could export directly to South America since they weren't commonwealth. That's not to say that a Canadian car could not end up in South America though.

[Dweber]

Is there any truth that South American Tudor Phaeton's have more wood in the body than American built Tudor Phaetons?

[Model A Ron]

The South American Cars speak Spanish and the American A's speak English.

[Brad in Germany]

I understand that the chassis for the South American assembled Ford Model A's were sourced from Germany and are stamped on the center cross member with "Made in Germany" like seen on this one:





Note also the rounded rectangle shape of the center hole and the smooth oval shape of the two outer holes. That smooth oval outer hole shape should have the same shape as the brake rod return spring mounting brackets riveted to the side of the frame (before they were stamped......since that is where the metal blanks for those brackets came from).

Has anyone else noticed that "Made in Germany" stamping and the shape of the outer holes on that cross member on Model A's from South America?

Brad in Maryland

[ronn]

Nice info Brad! I was thinking your first photo was a Jackson Pollock.....

[john charlton]

Very interesting info Brad . I will check my Argentine RHD 180 A frame . Back in the day Argentina/Uruguay was RHD while Brazil was LHD . I wonder if Germany produced both frames . This for 30/31 as these were side specific 28/29 were drilled both sides even for the USA domestic market .

John back in Suffolk County England .

[Marshall V. Daut]

Does anyone remember back in the 1970's when a man in New York ran a classified ad in each "Restorer" magazine, offering imported Phaetons (mostly Deluxes) from South America, complete with tantalizing photos? The cars usually still had their top assemblies, windshields, doors and appeared fairly to be complete. Who knows what shape they were in mechanically, however? Generally, four Phaetons were offered per issue and were in the $3500-4000 price range as I recall. The prices were fair for the time, but the catch was that the buyer had to arrange shipment from South America and pay import fees, duties and taxes. I think the seller's name was Sam Sherman. Does that name ring a bell for anyone here?
I wonder whatever ever happened to all those Phaetons once they reached American shores and what became of Mr. Sherman. Did any "old timers" on this website ever buy one of those cars from him or know someone who did? 'Sure wish I had a time machine so that I could travel back to the 1970's and buy every one of those $3500 Deluxe Phaetons!!!
Marshall

[Keith True]

I remember some of those cars that were imported and sold here in the 90's by the Kaplan family.I looked at two,that were bought by folks local to me.Both buyers were kind of like,what did I do? Those cars just screamed out,I'm from South America.You don't have to look far to see that South American pedigree.The two I looked at made me think of static displays put together around here for farm stores.

[rotorwrench]

1931 was the transition year in Germany when the operations moved from Berlin to the new Koln plant. The new plant was set up for manufacturing and took time to put it all together. Production started in May of 1931.

The 180A body was manufactured by Briggs so they likely built all of those bodies. They would have been crated to ship to any Ford assembly plant that built the completed product.

[JRrev]

Originally Posted by Keith True

I remember some of those cars that were imported and sold here in the 90's by the Kaplan family.I looked at two,that were bought by folks local to me.Both buyers were kind of like,what did I do? Those cars just screamed out,I'm from South America.You don't have to look far to see that South American pedigree.The two I looked at made me think of static displays put together around here for farm stores.

I remember a Dr. Kaplan advertising Model A's and Ford V8's in Hemmings. I even contacted him regarding a cabriolet. Sent me pictures. Bail-wired, mismatched parts, and welds everywhere. Kinda explained the low price. No, I didn't bite..............

[Oldbluoval]

I purchased two deluxe phaetons maybe 30 years ago from SA. I had them scrap the running gears and crate the bodies. Saved shipping etc.
Replaced the cowls rather than convert to LHD. The bodies were really worn out but basic structures was there. Floor pans were “homemade” junk. But replaced with the Vicky type with mods. Worked out “ok” give or take!

[Synchro909]

It pains me to hear that you guys scrap or convert a RHD Model A to LHD. I'd like to get my hands on at least the RHD bits that are removed.

[Oldbluoval]

The cowls were SO BAD I’d have replaced the if LHD
Only RHD stuff I’ve ever dealt with