Ugly body dent from rear fender ???

[al's28/33]

I was wondering if the two rear fenders on my '28 phaeton are incorrect ? Whoever restored the car did not care to fit them neatly along the rear body panel and crimped both sides …. How can I determine if they are the correct ones ?

[Oldbluoval]

Full side view of fender? I’d think fenders would show damage to have bent the body that badly. Show fender meeting the splash apron and running board.

[mcgarrett]

Looks like the car was rear ended and the rear body panel wasn't repaired correctly.

[WHN]

Originally Posted by mcgarrett

Looks like the car was rear ended and the rear body panel wasn't repaired correctly.

I agree! Looks like rear end damage. What do your bumper brackets look like?

Enjoy.

[al's28/33]

No rear-end damage, no bent frame. Here are outer pics. Is there some dimensions I can take to confirm these fenders are not for a Tudor or Sedan ?? All underside brackets are straight and all seams against splash apron and running boards are true.

[Marshall V. Daut]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

If you had '30-31 rear fenders in place, there would be a noticeable gap between the fender's curve and the splash apron, if the curvature of the fender would have been compatible with the well in the body. That curve in the fender where it meets the splash apron is gentler and shallower on '28-29 fenders than on the '30-31 rear fenders. It looks to me as though the fenders are correct for your body style and year.

As already pointed out, there was some kind of accident back there in the past that probably rendered the rear fender unsavable. So, a good fender was installed without fixing the deep dent in the body. (Duh!) A dent that deep would have also left some kind of damage on the fender, too.
Marshall

[al's28/33]

Can the body dents be peened back out from inside, behind the rear seat I assume ?

[mcgarrett]

Have you looked under the rear seat to see if there are signs of an accident? From inside the car, remove the rear seat cushion and inspect closely where the floor meets the rear body panel and also have a look at where the body is buckled at the point where the fenders are attached. What do you see there?
Even if someone installed the wrong fenders, that alone wouldn't buckle the body like the photo shows - it took some force to deform the back panel like that.

[al's28/33]

I'll take a look when I can get the car outside after this next storm passes thru.


Thank you gents, I appreciate the feedback so far. I had always thought they were the incorrect fenders. I'll look for bondo and any crumpled steel panels.... stay tuned.

[ronn]

only one way to fix that and will be a good bit of work.

never seen a hit like that, but as suggested, from the back.

[CA Victoria]

It may be worth it to let a person look at it who is skilled in body fabrication (metal shaping)
If the bumper was hit hard enough it may have sheared the bumper arm bolts on the frame and the stand that connects under the body pushed the lower valance in r resting the crease.
I would not be tempted to hammer it out. Done properly that area can be restored.

[Oldbluoval]

Of course the repair would require paint match
Ugggh

[mcgarrett]

It will be interesting to hear what the owner finds when he does a close inspection under the seat and around the wheel houses where the damage is.

[Marshall V. Daut]

My guess is that not only did a previous owner not repair the damage to the back of the body before installing a replacement fender, it looks as if the body was painted WITH the dent already there. In other words, he blew off repairing the dent in favor of new paint, which of course makes the dent disappear. (Yeah, right!) The paint is obviously enamel that was not thinned properly or was sprayed at too low of an air pressure, perhaps both. No one bothered to color sand out the orange peel after spraying and then buff out the paint, assuming it had been catalyzed. The amount of orange peel in the paint would make any citrus grower in Florida proud. Had the dent been inflicted AFTER paint had been laid down, the paint most certainly would have chipped, cracked or crazed as the metal stretched from impact and its attendant heat generated by the stretching metal. None of that is present in the photos. New paint was laid over the already-present dent.
I do not mean to denigrate what appears to be an otherwise nice restoration on this Phaeton, but I do happen to know a thing or two about paint, as I have been painting Model A's, T's and Corvettes since 1981. I see an enamel paint job on this area of the body and this fender at the least, maybe the entire car. Perhaps the paint could be improved by test sanding a small area around the spare tire carrier and then buffing it out. If the orange peel goes away and the paint doesn't burn or sand off (too thin), the paint will look 100 times better afterwards and result in a deep shine. At least the colors are authentic! The car just needs a little more elbow grease to bring it up a notch or two in its cosmetics. As a fellow '28-29 Phaeton owner and avid fan, I say "Go for it, Al!"
Marshall

[Marshall V. Daut]

Not to sidetrack the issue of whether the rear fender is correct to this car or how the dent got there, but since the subject of paint improvement has been broached (by me! ), here is what an acrylic enamel paint job looks like after color sanding and buffing. It started out with orange peel in the paint, too. It's hard to spray enamel without a little orange peel. The question is: how much orange peel is acceptable before sanding and buffing are considered?
I know that I have posted this photo before, but it can help illustrate numerous areas of Model A discussion, from paint quality, to color authenticity, to over-restoration, to placement of the pin striping, etc., etc. So, you'll probably see it AGAIN in some future discussion.
O.K. Back to rear fender compatibility and dent control.
Marshall

[al's28/33]

I appreciate all the comments guys, although there are a lot of incorrect issues with the paint, orange peel being one, it is a 1928 model year (frame has the left side hole for early e-brake) it's painted with '29 color scheme.
As soon as the rains subside next week I will pull her out into daylight and remove the rear seat to see what I can find inside the back panels.

[Marshall V. Daut]

Ah, yes! Rose Beige and Seal Brown = 1929. Good catch, Al. 'Sorry. 'Still a terrific color combo on a 1928-29 Phaeton/Roadster, though, especially with an orange pinstripe. 'Really turns on those two colors. The Ford stylist department sure nailed that combo!
Marshall

[Keith True]

I think if it was my car I would be kind of glad that whoever fixed up that car decided to leave those wrinkles alone.They are rounded and smooth,and look a lot better than if somebody just started having at it with a hammer.Leave it for the next guy,but don't compound the damage he'll have to deal with.

[al's28/33]

Folks, I was able to remove the rear seat cushion and attempt to get some blurry flash pictures of the rear/quarter panels. I'm sorry these do not view properly, but if you can notice behind the pine wood block and upholstery there is the small hump in sheet metal and related shadow, that's the dent!..... otherwise there is no other evidence of rear body damage to frame, body, bumper brackets or interior seat riser. My finger tips could only determine where these two dents are but unable to get more clear photos for you. I imagine the only correct way to solve this is to remove the rear back rest and attempt some careful cosmetic surgery. ???? your thoughts ?????

[nkaminar]

To me, the dent on the starboard side looks more like it was hit with a blunt object. The one on the port side looks more like a fold due to a rear ender. It is going to take a professional body shop to fix this at some significant cost.

[40-A Twins]

If you are determined to fix this yourself, the best approach is to use a slapper hammer and dolly. Most of the hammering will take place on the outside where you have access. Find a dolly with corner radius that matches the wheel well to quarter corner radius and modify it using a belt sander or disk sander to make the dolly fit down in that corner. You will probably have to make one for each side. There are lots of videos on utube that show how to use a slapper. I made one using a piece of 1/8 x 2 flat bar and pretty much figured out how to use it in a few minutes. Slapper hammers can be found on Amazon, evilbay, Eastwood, and many other sites.

[lrf]

both of those dents are just behind where the rear fender brackets bolt to the body. I'd say the car was rear ended, fenders and brackets took the brunt of the damage along with the body. Fenders are easy to replace and probably were without someone repairing the body damage. Enjoy driving your "A" as is unless the damage REALLY bugs you. LRF

[al's28/33]

Thanks for the input guys, looks like another thing to add "if and when" I have the car repainted to original '28 color scheme Arabian Sand. I really thought the fenders were not the correct fit, now with your advice I can relax about finding correct ones, already got 'em.

[J Franklin]

A couple handfuls of bondo and your good to go.

[old31]

Originally Posted by Marshall V. Daut

Not to sidetrack the issue of whether the rear fender is correct to this car or how the dent got there, but since the subject of paint improvement has been broached (by me! ), here is what an acrylic enamel paint job looks like after color sanding and buffing. It started out with orange peel in the paint, too. It's hard to spray enamel without a little orange peel. The question is: how much orange peel is acceptable before sanding and buffing are considered?
I know that I have posted this photo before, but it can help illustrate numerous areas of Model A discussion, from paint quality, to color authenticity, to over-restoration, to placement of the pin striping, etc., etc. So, you'll probably see it AGAIN in some future discussion.
O.K. Back to rear fender compatibility and dent control.
Marshall

Very, very nice looking paint job Marshall.

[RDVAARK]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

PM sent, or maybe not. My 28 tudor had the exact same damage; hit in rear, fender tips bent under, widening the top of the fender, pushing in the corner. A lot of work with a slapper, a hydraulic ram "Porta Power", and some weird handmade dollies. Before ANY hammering is done, get an estimate from a well-equipped Paintless Dent Removal. I've used PDR techniques for years. What I did on this damage on my tudor did not really affect the skin. A skilled PDR guy could probably save you a lot work. Expensive? Factor in bodywork, color matching, paint,time, and the disturbance of a finished car, and it may be worth it. Really look at some PDR jobs on U-tube. Stay away from gypsies cruising the parking lots, go to a well fitted out shop and look at their work.
With your enamel paint, a localised hit like this with it's well defined stresses, and the position on the body, a careful PDR will probably pleasantly surprise you.Try to PM me, I have lots of measurements and methods to work on the dent. RDVAARK

[ronn]

A couple handfuls of bondo and your good to go.

not so sure about that. the dent is more then a slight bump- its everywhere.

[J Franklin]

Originally Posted by ronn

A couple handfuls of bondo and your good to go.

not so sure about that. the dent is more then a slight bump- its everywhere.

ronn, 'twas only a joke.

[Marshall V. Daut]

"ronn, 'twas only a joke."

T'were it only so, J. Franklin! Sadly, in our hobby, it's not all that uncommon to find "restored" cars and given-up-on project cars with Bondo slopped in two inches deep in an effort to fill a dent instead of fixing it properly. I have personally dug out deep, cracked Bondo a number of times from Model A and T bodies over the years. Anyone who has been in this hobby long enough could probably match my experience with similar tales of woe - and disgust. 'Sure is cheaper to glob a can of Bondo in a deep dent instead of paying to have it fixed correctly and permanently, isn't it? I'm sure that's the only corner that was cut during THOSE kinds of restorations. I wonder if Packard and Duesenberg restorations have this problem? (written dripping with sarcasm).
Marshall

[ronn]

J. my apologies. I guess I was out of form.

usually I spot the sarcasm 2 miles away. Today Im running behind the curve.

[WHN]

I would really like to see a few pictures of the entire car. What little I have been able to view leads me to believe, if it were mine, I might not try to fix it.

Enjoy.

[Marshall V. Daut]

"...usually I spot the sarcasm 2 miles away. Today Im running behind the curve."

Welcome to the club, the "Behind the Curve" bunch. You are not alone in that feeling here!
Marshall

[AYooperA]

I am working on my ‘29 Phaeton and posted a few pictures of that area of your damage. Not easy to get at the inside without removing backrest if that would be necessary to correct. The back spring locks in over triangular shaped metal tangs located on horizontal wood strips mounted to body. Top of back rest material tacked into tack strip with top material and would be a bugger to mess with. Mine is not dented but have to deal with issues from the rust worm. Body shows evidence of original Balsam Green but am seriously considering another color.

[nkaminar]

I think ADVAARK is right. (Post # 26) I hadn't thought about that but it seems correct. During a rearender, the fenders buckled and formed a fold that pushed in the body.

The paintless dent removal guys can probably do a lot but I think the damage to the starboard side is beyond paintless.

[al's28/33]

Yooper, your pics show the locations spot-on. I have had the car for 22 years and it was piece mealed together from previous owners. An amateur restoration that I have slowly replaced dozens of incorrect and worn-out parts with restored "28" components. That bend and angle of the rear body will be a doozy to bring back to normal. Someday, when I have found the pot-o-gold to disassemble and repaint it original '28 color scheme, there's a couple pounds of bondo under the seat risers and bottom of door skins. She runs good, though. All brakes, steering, engine/chassis have been re-worked, restored and rebuilt. It is the cosmetics that are still the ugly pig with uneven lipstick!

[Marshall V. Daut]

Nice car! Very attractive!
'Just a friendly piece of advice, though: When you repaint your Phaeton after body repairs, paint that chrome windshield frame lower body color. The car will look MUCH more authentic. You'd be surprised how different and better your Phaeton will look with the windshield frame painted the right color. See the photo of our December, 1928 Phaeton with outside door handles and two-tone Niagara Blue Light and Duchess Blue color combo.
Marshall

[al's28/33]

Marshall, yes the windshield FRAME was repainted black, not authentic, but better than bright chrome … thanks!

[Marshall V. Daut]

Interestingly, you were so close to being authentic by painting the windshield frame black on your 1928 Phaeton - but you probably didn't know it unless you are a student of the so-called AR Model A's (actually a misnomer, but a handy one)! You were too early in the year to be correct, however. Prototype open cars built in 1927 were fitted with black windshield frames. 'Dunno how many were built that way, but there is at least one surviving photo of a prototype Phaeton demonstrating this, along with a couple other features that didn't make it into production. Windshields in production 1928 open cars were painted lower body color and continued as such into 1929. I have the PPG Concept Acrylic Enamel formula for a very true Rose Beige if you want to have some mixed for spraying. It appears to be an exact match for the color of your Phaeton's lower body.
Marshall

[WHN]

Originally Posted by al's28/33

Yooper, your pics show the locations spot-on. I have had the car for 22 years and it was piece mealed together from previous owners. An amateur restoration that I have slowly replaced dozens of incorrect and worn-out parts with restored "28" components. That bend and angle of the rear body will be a doozy to bring back to normal. Someday, when I have found the pot-o-gold to disassemble and repaint it original '28 color scheme, there's a couple pounds of bondo under the seat risers and bottom of door skins. She runs good, though. All brakes, steering, engine/chassis have been re-worked, restored and rebuilt. It is the cosmetics that are still the ugly pig with uneven lipstick!

From the picture it sure looks like a very nice early Model A. If it were mine, I would enjoy it the way it is. She looks better than most cars I have seen over my many years.

I don’t see an ugly pig. I see a loved antique car that not matter what, is always going to need attention in one form or another.

I would be proud to be the owner. Let other people knock it. They always will, no matter what you do to improve it.

Your very lucky.

[katy]

the windshield was repainted black

Must be hard to see through.

[Marshall V. Daut]

"Must be hard to see through."

Har, har, har! I sure didn't see THAT one coming. I read right past the original statement about repainting the "windshield black" and didn't even think of the glass inside the windshield FRAME. Good catch.
Marshall

[al's28/33]

Thanks for all the compliments guys .... sorry yes, only the "frame" was repainted ! good one!

[al's28/33]

Ok last picture.