The Ford Barn

RonLey · 02-07-2016, 05:34 PM

Forgive me as this a long post. When I bought my '28 Roadster it came with the engine matching the frame and was supposedly rebuilt "ready to go". I already had a '29 engine rebuilt and was trying to get ready to get ready for a tour so I used it. As this winter approached I thought a great winter project would be to get the original engine in the car.

It has been nothing but problems as the entire rebuild had been poorly done. I tore it down and have been working to get it back together. I got the mains back to .001 to .0015 clearance, camshaft in and I can turn the crankshaft as approximately 20 ft-lb so happy. So some drag but acceptable.

On to the rods and here is where I am totally lost. Just as a note I have had the pistons out and checked clearances now 3 times. I put in #1, clearance .0015 at 35 ft-lb and I can turn the crankshaft with a little more drag due to the piston. Put in #2 and clearance is .001 and can still turn crankshaft. Put in #3 and clearance is .0015 and can still turn crankshaft. Put in #4 and clearance at .0015. Can't even budge the crankshaft, it is stuck. I back off #4 to hand tight and crankshaft turns.

I back all of the nuts off to 20 ft-lbs and can't turn the crankshaft. I back off #1, #2, #3 and #4 hand tight and crankshaft turns. I tighten down #4 and it crankshaft won't budge.

One factor I am not pleased with is that the rods are not matching but mismatched caps. I would still think if bored correctly I would not have this issue. I had marked the caps when I took the engine apart so I know I am putting them back as they were assembled.

I am at a loss. I am not seeing any shiny spots on #4 that would indicate a problem. The pistons move on the wrist pins fin so it's not binding there.

I am at the point of a slightly bent rod or crankshaft. Anyone have any other ideas of what to try?

Thanks

Ron

Big hammer · 02-07-2016, 06:03 PM

Egg shaped journal, egg shaped big end on rod?

RonLey · 02-07-2016, 06:17 PM

That's an idea. I mike it and see if it is uniform.

tbirdtbird · 02-07-2016, 07:27 PM

agree with the hammer

there are new repop forged rods coming thru with out-of-round big ends by as much as .020. That defines 'oval' That will ruin ur day.
I am at a point where I mic every dimension of every part and have all the rods I lay my hands on re-sized

Sadly ur experience with a 'fresh rebuild' is all too common

Dodge · 02-07-2016, 10:01 PM

Take that numer 4 rod and use a permanent marker pin to coat all surfaces of the bearing including the sides of the bearing and see if there are any high spots after you turn it a couple of revolutions. If you see them you'll have to scrape the bearing in.

tbirdtbird · 02-07-2016, 10:53 PM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

"I tighten down #4 and it crankshaft won't budge."

mic it first

Mike V. Florida · 02-07-2016, 11:37 PM

Bent rods could do the same thing, as will improperly bored rods. After you are sure the crank is not oval or egg shaped I would use pression blue or a candle to coat the bearing surface. Put them in hand tight and turn the crank. Then check to see if the crank is in complete contact with the bearing surface. Tighten a little more if got have to.

Chuck Sea/Tac · 02-07-2016, 11:43 PM

I use Prussia blue from napa for high spots, but it very well could be something out of round, as mentioned.

James Rogers · 02-08-2016, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RonLey

Forgive me as this a long post. When I bought my '28 Roadster it came with the engine matching the frame and was supposedly rebuilt "ready to go". I already had a '29 engine rebuilt and was trying to get ready to get ready for a tour so I used it. As this winter approached I thought a great winter project would be to get the original engine in the car.

It has been nothing but problems as the entire rebuild had been poorly done. I tore it down and have been working to get it back together. I got the mains back to .001 to .0015 clearance, camshaft in and I can turn the crankshaft as approximately 20 ft-lb so happy. So some drag but acceptable.

On to the rods and here is where I am totally lost. Just as a note I have had the pistons out and checked clearances now 3 times. I put in #1, clearance .0015 at 35 ft-lb and I can turn the crankshaft with a little more drag due to the piston. Put in #2 and clearance is .001 and can still turn crankshaft. Put in #3 and clearance is .0015 and can still turn crankshaft. Put in #4 and clearance at .0015. Can't even budge the crankshaft, it is stuck. I back off #4 to hand tight and crankshaft turns.

I back all of the nuts off to 20 ft-lbs and can't turn the crankshaft. I back off #1, #2, #3 and #4 hand tight and crankshaft turns. I tighten down #4 and it crankshaft won't budge.

One factor I am not pleased with is that the rods are not matching but mismatched caps. I would still think if bored correctly I would not have this issue. I had marked the caps when I took the engine apart so I know I am putting them back as they were assembled.

I am at a loss. I am not seeing any shiny spots on #4 that would indicate a problem. The pistons move on the wrist pins fin so it's not binding there.

I am at the point of a slightly bent rod or crankshaft. Anyone have any other ideas of what to try?

Thanks

Ron

I will look at the shop this morning and post a item to look at and see if I can help.

RonLey · 02-08-2016, 08:21 AM

Super Bowl interrupted me yesterday. Tonight I am going to take measurements and if I don't find something obvious move #4 to #3 position and see if the problem follows. The other idea is to put plastigauge on top and bottom and compare clearance. I will also stop by and get some prussian blue tonight.

Tom Wesenberg · 02-08-2016, 12:28 PM

Was there football yesterday?

I spent a couple hours running after groceries and bought some tools at the pawn shop. BTW, why is it a pawn shop and not a pawn store?

I bought 3 spark plug sockets, a 3/8" socket extension, and a 12" Proto Professional adjustable wrench, all for $5. It's unusual that I find a bargain in a pawn shop.

As far as the engine being tight when #4 rod is tightened, I'd lay a strip of plastigauge across the full length of the bearing surface to see if it's even all the way across. Remember to oil the plastigauge as you lay it on the crank.

Can you move each of the rods sideways to feel freeplay as they are tightened?

Fullraceflathead · 02-08-2016, 04:46 PM

Is there any chance you have the #4 rod cap on 180 degrees out?

BILL WILLIAMSON · 02-08-2016, 04:59 PM

Once a friend called, "Every half turn, my engine binds, I think it has a krooked crankshaft"------"Just take the plugs out"----------"OH"!
Bill Curious

KGBnut · 02-08-2016, 06:23 PM

You may already be doing it this way, but Pop taught me to mic each journal as I adjusted them, and always adjust them at the widest spot...each one...one at a time.

Also, I've noticed that some of the older babbits are so soft that you can't use plastigauge with them. The just sink into the bearing and don't give an accurate reading.

Just some thoughts...

Ken

RonLey · 02-08-2016, 08:36 PM

Here's a picture of the bearings after using Prussian Blue. The babbit is soft and what you see is the indent from the platigauge.

hale1776 · 02-11-2016, 07:42 PM

Bent crankshaft my guess, it can be reground and still get bent by the grinding operation itself if some kind of support not used opposite grinding wheel when grinding for center main. Also one thing on at a time, then two full rotations of crank for every step. Takes longer but no mystery's as to where the problem is located. By the details you have given and your willingness to go above and beyond I salute you in your moment of frustration we have all been there it sucks, mystery's are the worst. But I have good news, you are now as deep into the rabbit hole as it gets, all additional mystery's will be easier than this one. Someday you will thank the moron who put this together for what you had to learn to fix it, not today, but someday. Steve

Tom Wesenberg · 02-11-2016, 08:11 PM

The rods should have grooves to spread the oil across the surface. See this picture from J&M Machine Shop.

Ron W · 02-12-2016, 10:38 AM

The picture looks like the Babbitt may be hitting hard on the edges by the radius. There should be slight side to side play(the amount escapes me). Ron W

RonLey · 02-20-2016, 02:18 PM

Maybe this will help someone else but the problem doesn't appear to be the babbit but rather the plastigauge I used. I purchased a pack at my local autoparts. A member suggested that it might have been old plastigauge that had hardened. I ordered a packages Clevite plastigauge from Jeggs and no indention in the babbit. I am getting good spread and measurements. Whether is was the brand or age I don't know.

02-07-2016, 10:01 PM	#5
Dodge Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Sonoma, CA. Posts: 1,498	Re: Engine Frustration Take that numer 4 rod and use a permanent marker pin to coat all surfaces of the bearing including the sides of the bearing and see if there are any high spots after you turn it a couple of revolutions. If you see them you'll have to scrape the bearing in.

02-07-2016, 10:53 PM	#6
tbirdtbird BANNED Join Date: May 2012 Location: inside your RAM Posts: 3,134	Re: Engine Frustration Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) "I tighten down #4 and it crankshaft won't budge." mic it first __________________ '31 180A

02-07-2016, 11:37 PM	#7
Mike V. Florida Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: South Florida Posts: 14,054	Re: Engine Frustration Bent rods could do the same thing, as will improperly bored rods. After you are sure the crank is not oval or egg shaped I would use pression blue or a candle to coat the bearing surface. Put them in hand tight and turn the crank. Then check to see if the crank is in complete contact with the bearing surface. Tighten a little more if got have to. __________________ What's right about America is that although we have a mess of problems, we have great capacity - intellect and resources - to do some thing about them. - Henry Ford II

02-07-2016, 11:43 PM	#8
Chuck Sea/Tac Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Between Seattle & Tacoma Posts: 2,354	Re: Engine Frustration I use Prussia blue from napa for high spots, but it very well could be something out of round, as mentioned.

02-08-2016, 08:21 AM	#10
RonLey Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 51	Re: Engine Frustration Super Bowl interrupted me yesterday. Tonight I am going to take measurements and if I don't find something obvious move #4 to #3 position and see if the problem follows. The other idea is to put plastigauge on top and bottom and compare clearance. I will also stop by and get some prussian blue tonight.

02-07-2016, 05:34 PM	#1
RonLey Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 51	Engine Frustration Forgive me as this a long post. When I bought my '28 Roadster it came with the engine matching the frame and was supposedly rebuilt "ready to go". I already had a '29 engine rebuilt and was trying to get ready to get ready for a tour so I used it. As this winter approached I thought a great winter project would be to get the original engine in the car. It has been nothing but problems as the entire rebuild had been poorly done. I tore it down and have been working to get it back together. I got the mains back to .001 to .0015 clearance, camshaft in and I can turn the crankshaft as approximately 20 ft-lb so happy. So some drag but acceptable. On to the rods and here is where I am totally lost. Just as a note I have had the pistons out and checked clearances now 3 times. I put in #1, clearance .0015 at 35 ft-lb and I can turn the crankshaft with a little more drag due to the piston. Put in #2 and clearance is .001 and can still turn crankshaft. Put in #3 and clearance is .0015 and can still turn crankshaft. Put in #4 and clearance at .0015. Can't even budge the crankshaft, it is stuck. I back off #4 to hand tight and crankshaft turns. I back all of the nuts off to 20 ft-lbs and can't turn the crankshaft. I back off #1, #2, #3 and #4 hand tight and crankshaft turns. I tighten down #4 and it crankshaft won't budge. One factor I am not pleased with is that the rods are not matching but mismatched caps. I would still think if bored correctly I would not have this issue. I had marked the caps when I took the engine apart so I know I am putting them back as they were assembled. I am at a loss. I am not seeing any shiny spots on #4 that would indicate a problem. The pistons move on the wrist pins fin so it's not binding there. I am at the point of a slightly bent rod or crankshaft. Anyone have any other ideas of what to try? Thanks Ron

02-07-2016, 06:03 PM	#2
Big hammer Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Land of Lincoln Posts: 3,131	Re: Engine Frustration Egg shaped journal, egg shaped big end on rod?

02-07-2016, 06:17 PM	#3
RonLey Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 51	Re: Engine Frustration That's an idea. I mike it and see if it is uniform.

02-07-2016, 07:27 PM	#4
tbirdtbird BANNED Join Date: May 2012 Location: inside your RAM Posts: 3,134	Re: Engine Frustration agree with the hammer there are new repop forged rods coming thru with out-of-round big ends by as much as .020. That defines 'oval' That will ruin ur day. I am at a point where I mic every dimension of every part and have all the rods I lay my hands on re-sized Sadly ur experience with a 'fresh rebuild' is all too common __________________ '31 180A

02-08-2016, 12:28 PM	#11
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Engine Frustration Was there football yesterday? I spent a couple hours running after groceries and bought some tools at the pawn shop. BTW, why is it a pawn shop and not a pawn store? I bought 3 spark plug sockets, a 3/8" socket extension, and a 12" Proto Professional adjustable wrench, all for $5. It's unusual that I find a bargain in a pawn shop. As far as the engine being tight when #4 rod is tightened, I'd lay a strip of plastigauge across the full length of the bearing surface to see if it's even all the way across. Remember to oil the plastigauge as you lay it on the crank. Can you move each of the rods sideways to feel freeplay as they are tightened?

02-08-2016, 04:46 PM	#12
Fullraceflathead Senior Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: Chillicothe, Missouri Posts: 1,176	Re: Engine Frustration Is there any chance you have the #4 rod cap on 180 degrees out? __________________ "If I asked people what they wanted they would have said faster horses." -Henry Ford "Primitive technology is not a design flaw" 1928 Ford Model A Roadster Pickup 1930 Gordon Smith Air Compressor 1941 Willy's Pickup 1960 Thunderbird-For Sale 1964 Buick Riviera 2x4 425 1965 Pontiac GTO, 455 Super Duty 2004 Dodge Ram SRT-10, V-10 Viper 1977 Charger Jet Boat,460 Ford,Jacuzzi Jet Front Engine Nostalgia Dragster,Supercharged 296 "Fullrace Flathead" Ford Engine Build up on DVD ask

02-08-2016, 04:59 PM	#13
BILL WILLIAMSON Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: FRESNO, CA Posts: 12,560	Re: Engine Frustration Once a friend called, "Every half turn, my engine binds, I think it has a krooked crankshaft"------"Just take the plugs out"----------"OH"! Bill Curious __________________ "THE ASSISTANT GURU OF STUFF"

02-08-2016, 06:23 PM	#14
KGBnut Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Southwestern Connecticut Posts: 931	Re: Engine Frustration You may already be doing it this way, but Pop taught me to mic each journal as I adjusted them, and always adjust them at the widest spot...each one...one at a time. Also, I've noticed that some of the older babbits are so soft that you can't use plastigauge with them. The just sink into the bearing and don't give an accurate reading. Just some thoughts... Ken __________________ Style beats speed any day, and with a lot fewer tickets.

02-11-2016, 07:42 PM	#16
hale1776 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Connecticut Posts: 130	Re: Engine Frustration Bent crankshaft my guess, it can be reground and still get bent by the grinding operation itself if some kind of support not used opposite grinding wheel when grinding for center main. Also one thing on at a time, then two full rotations of crank for every step. Takes longer but no mystery's as to where the problem is located. By the details you have given and your willingness to go above and beyond I salute you in your moment of frustration we have all been there it sucks, mystery's are the worst. But I have good news, you are now as deep into the rabbit hole as it gets, all additional mystery's will be easier than this one. Someday you will thank the moron who put this together for what you had to learn to fix it, not today, but someday. Steve

02-12-2016, 10:38 AM	#18
Ron W Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Central Me. Posts: 260	Re: Engine Frustration The picture looks like the Babbitt may be hitting hard on the edges by the radius. There should be slight side to side play(the amount escapes me). Ron W

02-20-2016, 02:18 PM	#19
RonLey Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 51	Re: Engine Frustration Maybe this will help someone else but the problem doesn't appear to be the babbit but rather the plastigauge I used. I purchased a pack at my local autoparts. A member suggested that it might have been old plastigauge that had hardened. I ordered a packages Clevite plastigauge from Jeggs and no indention in the babbit. I am getting good spread and measurements. Whether is was the brand or age I don't know.