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Old 05-03-2021, 02:12 PM   #1
hardtimes
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Default Wire vs lock washers

Ford wired some fasteners.
I like new lock washers.
Any idea why wire originally ?
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Old 05-03-2021, 02:23 PM   #2
alexiskai
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Default Re: Wire vs lock washers

One thing that's interesting about safety wire, properly installed, is that the rotation of one fastener that's loosening will pull on the wire in a way that puts tightening torque on the adjacent fasteners. This links the fasteners on a given flange together in a way that lock washers don't.
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Old 05-03-2021, 03:05 PM   #3
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Default Re: Wire vs lock washers

Maybe because they didn't have LOCTITE in them days.
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Old 05-03-2021, 03:18 PM   #4
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Default Re: Wire vs lock washers

There are several studies of the effectiveness of lock washers to actually "lock".

Controversial for sure, but NASA says:

“The typical helical spring washer … serves as a spring while the bolt is being tightened.
However, the washer is normally flat by the time the bolt is fully torqued. At this time it is equivalent to a solid flat washer, and its locking ability is nonexistent. In summary, a
lockwasher of this type is useless for locking."

It does serve as a spring to hold the fastener tight if it starts to back out.
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Old 05-03-2021, 05:27 PM   #5
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Default Re: Wire vs lock washers

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwmckenzie View Post
There are several studies of the effectiveness of lock washers to actually "lock".

Controversial for sure, but NASA says:

“The typical helical spring washer … serves as a spring while the bolt is being tightened.
However, the washer is normally flat by the time the bolt is fully torqued. At this time it is equivalent to a solid flat washer, and its locking ability is nonexistent. In summary, a
lockwasher of this type is useless for locking."

It does serve as a spring to hold the fastener tight if it starts to back out.
I'm sure we have all seen a spring washer gouge a groove under the head of a bolt and into the surface it was against as the bolt is undone. By the time a spring washer is working as it should, the bolt has already lost some of its tension but I wouldn't say they are useless.
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Old 05-03-2021, 10:13 PM   #6
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Default Re: Wire vs lock washers

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Ford hired the best engineers of his time. I’ll go with their recommendations.
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Old 05-03-2021, 10:19 PM   #7
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Default Re: Wire vs lock washers

Properly installed safety wire is the most positive. There there are places where Henry used wire that I will still use it. I will also use LOCKTITE along with safety wire so I know the fastener will not loosen up, even a little bit.

If I am using lock washers on less important stuff, but I will usually use grade 8 lock washers. They will hold up better than regular lock washers.

Along with grade 8 lock washers (and bolts) such as clutch bolts etc, I will also use LOCKTITE.

My experience,

Chris W.

Last edited by CWPASADENA; 05-03-2021 at 10:22 PM. Reason: CLARIFICATION
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Old 05-04-2021, 06:16 AM   #8
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Default Re: Wire vs lock washers

I use safety wire everywhere but maybe on the rear motor mounts because it is so hard to get in there with wire.
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Old 05-04-2021, 06:24 AM   #9
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Default Re: Wire vs lock washers

I didn't think that Henry used lock washers. Wasn't it cotter pins and wire only?
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Old 05-04-2021, 08:20 AM   #10
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Default Re: Wire vs lock washers

There is an entire discussion you can have on effectiveness of cotter pins, lockwashers, safety wire, thread lubricants and tightening torque. My experience in the compressor industry is that things like safety wire, cotter pins, lockwashers are redundant to a properly tightened joint based on a certain thread lubricant and clean threads. So an example is: 45 Ft-lbs, clean threads, using Molybdenum di-sulfide thread lubricant. However, you cannot go wrong with how Henry and his engineers designed these cars.
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Old 05-04-2021, 08:52 AM   #11
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Default Re: Wire vs lock washers

Even by the end of the Model T Ford was migrating away from cotter pins to lock washers in some places. So yes, on the Model A there are cotter pins, lock washers and safety wire depending on location and application.
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Old 05-04-2021, 09:12 AM   #12
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Default Re: Wire vs lock washers

Ford mostly used safety wire on bolts that are loaded in tension where the bolted flange is constantly being pushed or pulled on. As was mentioned, a fastener with a wire safety is generally wired in a way as to hold a positive pull on the fastener toward the tighten direction. While it doesn't always prevent them from coming loose, it does prevent them from backing off or turning.

When a fastener becomes loose, it starts fretting and movement in the flange and threaded portions of the fastener. The longer it is loose, the looser it gets until it fails entirely. A wire safetied fastener is proven to stay in place longer than any other form of lock on tension fasteners so it is still in use today but mostly in aerospace and marine applications. In aerospace and marine applications, it is also used on shear type fasteners for applications where constant movement or vibration may cause looseness over time and inspection intervals are infrequent such as in internal components of gearboxes and other enclosed power or drive system components. Fluid systems such as hydraulic, lubrication, or fuel related systems also use a lot of safety wired fasteners and especially where they are critical for safe operation over long periods of time.
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Old 05-04-2021, 09:14 AM   #13
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Default Re: Wire vs lock washers

Ever wonder why wheel lug nuts, head bolts and nuts have no locking devices?

Here is what we use on aircraft engines. Only use one time and then throw it away and use a new one.
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Old 05-04-2021, 09:44 AM   #14
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Default Re: Wire vs lock washers

Safety wire, cotter pins, lock washers, Nylock nuts are security devices that prevent the loss of fasteners that become loose. They do not maintain tightness. The safety wire and cotter pin are positive security devices.

Thread locker does retain tightness and it is useless to retain fasteners that become loose.
The friction from torquing and interference fit nuts (AKA self locking nuts) retain tightness. Interference fit nuts also prevent the loss of fasteners that become loose.


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Old 05-04-2021, 11:01 AM   #15
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Default Re: Wire vs lock washers

What Bob said.
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Old 05-04-2021, 12:26 PM   #16
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Default Re: Wire vs lock washers

Quote:
Originally Posted by GPierce View Post
Ever wonder why wheel lug nuts, head bolts and nuts have no locking devices?
Because the altitude at stall speed of a Model A is zero?
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Old 05-04-2021, 02:46 PM   #17
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Default Re: Wire vs lock washers

Quote:
Originally Posted by GPierce View Post
Ever wonder why wheel lug nuts, head bolts and nuts have no locking devices?

Here is what we use on aircraft engines. Only use one time and then throw it away and use a new one.

Don't forget pal-nuts.


"Thread locker does retain tightness and it is useless to retain fasteners that become loose."


Not true. I've been using locktite on high-vibration dirt bikes for over 50 years...and the material clogs threads enough so it takes effort to unscrew usually even after several turns. I've never lost a fitting with locktite.
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Old 05-04-2021, 06:07 PM   #18
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Default Re: Wire vs lock washers

Quote:
Originally Posted by old31 View Post
I didn't think that Henry used lock washers. Wasn't it cotter pins and wire only?
Henry used both lock washers and safety wire on the rear motor mount bolts. With all the engine vibration, these bolts are hard to keep tight.

I use lock washers, safety wire and LOCKTITE on these bolts and have yet to have one come loose.

The secret with LOCKTITE is to have all the threads absolutely clean.

Chris W.
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Old 05-04-2021, 07:36 PM   #19
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Default Re: Wire vs lock washers

Where is safety wire originally used on the A? I haven't found any on my car yet.
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Old 05-04-2021, 09:42 PM   #20
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Default Re: Wire vs lock washers

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Originally Posted by Stingray70 View Post
Where is safety wire originally used on the A? I haven't found any on my car yet.

Engine-wise, safety wire is used with the bolts that hold the flywheel housing to the engine block as well as the flywheel bolts.
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