Condenser Life w/ the Nu-Rex upper plate

[Colonel Biggs]

I've been running Nu-Rex's "modern upper plate" in the distributor of my '31 Roadster for about a year with great success. All of a sudden, I have started to experience stalls and difficult re-starts on both a cold and warm engine. I have juice to the distributor via the pop-out switch, and the fuel flow is okay. Has anyone using this Nu-Rex plate had any condenser-related problems? Theoretically, the condenser's location on the upper plate is supposed to prolong its life. I'd be interested in the experience of those who have used this setup.

Gordon Biggar
Houston, Texas

[Gerard]

I have them in 3 cars and no problem ( sofar)

[Tom Wesenberg]

Do you have the WIRELESS upper plate. I've heard complaints of them not working at times. I have a limited supply of 167 strand wire that is very flexible and works great.

[roccaas]

I had the same problem 2 summers ago. I still believe that heat build up in the timer caused the condenser to fail, with resulting drivability issues. I replaced the condenser then, but had no problem last summer, even though I never took the long hot trips that were part of the previous summer. The wiring also seemed to be a little worse for wear, so I replace it also.

I currently change the condenser and points twice yearly when I switch from summer to winter plugs and back. Cheap insurance that seems to be working with NO timer issues. Probably overkill, but I also have 2 backup carbs, a backup water pump, and will have an oil pump backup when the price is right.

In all honesty, it gives me a chance to get away from phone/fax/family for some "grease time" now that I don't golf or fish nearly as much.

"He's working on one of those @*&% cars again" is an oft heard remark round the house, but I digress....

[Kevin in NJ]

Brothers car used to go through condensors till he switched to the burn out proof ones you get these days. That was in the mid 80's.
Currently the car is running the same points that came with the car in 1970. Using the original type parts and a high strand count wire from a modern (in 1970) ignition system.
The modern style new condensors may not be the best quality these days. I would wonder if A&L is getting higher quality parts for their product then the 'modern' condensors you buy over the counter. Another reason to keep original maybe?

[Colonel Biggs]

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Thanks for the replies.

In order:
Tom - No, I'm using the standard lower plate with the extra length pigtail. I've heard the same problems, pertaining to the wireless plate, that you mentioned.

Jason - carb is clean/clear.

Roccaas: is your experience with a traditional condenser setup, or with the modern upper plate?

I suppose that the engineering answer that I am looking for is the median number of hours of burn for the condenser prior to failure, particularly with respect to the traditional setup (But, life isn't perfect, is it?) I might try contacting Nu-Rex to see if they have an answer.

The easy answer, of course, is to simply move on and replace the condenser. But, the appeal of the modern upper plate is the distancing of the condenser from engine heat. Or, is this just marketing hype? I probably have only ten hours on this condenser, and was hoping that several folks, who have used this setup for some time, might have concurred that condenser life is no different/longer, etc. than the traditional setup.

Thanks all!

GB

[Colonel Biggs]

Kevin --

I'll touch base with both A&L and Nu-Rex. I should think (conceptually) that the condensers on the upper plate would prolong their life, but I've seen no hard facts on the subject.

Where are you in NJ? Although I reside in Texas, I did my restoration of the Roadster in Madison (Morristown area).

[Aerocraft]

I have been using the "modern" style in three cars for as long as I can remember. Total miles must be well over 70K. I change the points and condenser at or under 5K. I do find that it is cumbersome to adjust the points, certainly not as easy as Henry's original design. On occasion, I have had to change the condenser but failure is rare. I do work with the supposition that 90% of carburetor problems are ignition........... Gar Williams

[Richard Wilson]

I have used the modern upper plate since they first came out in over ten different driver Model A's not to mention all of my friends who also have gone to the modern plate. It is a major improvement for the enjoyment of the Model A if you are driving in hot weather or have a heater manifold. I always change out the points and condenser and replace them with Motorcraft parts. Never have had a single problem.

[roccaas]

NuRex modern.

[Pilotdave]

Even new condensers (or other parts like coils..) can fail right out of the box. I've installed new condensers fresh from the parts store on my old tractors and had them fail immediately.
These days I suspect that the quality control function is more often in the hands of the consumers than the manufacturers. As well, any data that suggests a particular life for a part would likely only apply if measured across a large number of said parts.

[Kurt in NJ]

I don't see the advantage of the "modern" type of ignition ---other than the therapy of going from Napa to Napa to buy parts ---most of the modern production points and condensers seem to be troublesome, adjustment of the modern points is not as easy as original, I did have condenser problems with the original setup --untill I got the A&L one, the first one I got so hot it melted the solder holding the strap on ---so I bent the strap to make contact and kept going, at Hershey I made a comment about melting the solder to Al, he gave me a new one that had the strap welded on ---20 years later it is still going, as for heat bothering it I would say I have tested it enough to say it will survive long term use with a almost red hot manifold, and with exhaust gasses blowing on it from a crack in the manifold

I have looked at the quality of the "modern plate", it was at a demonstration in one of the club tents at Hershey --there was enough play between the plate and dist housing to change the gap more than .005, the cam was chrome plated over a rough surface --then I heard the speaker giving the seminar say -- to be reliable --you need--but I got drug out of there before I could ask questions ---to many booth to look at,too little time--

My friend has a 42 harley, it came with a new condenser, it barely ran, put in an old cond I had laying around ---it ran good, he got a new aftermarket cond, ran for 3 hours, got a new one from the dealer, it didn't work from new, got another one, it lasted 100 miles, the bike has now had the old one I found in a junk box for the last 2 years with no problems, but has had 2 new coils fail.

At work I get the problem cars, and the old cars, for a while the good Bosch points were on backorder, the cheap ones failed soon, I would take apart the old ones, clean up the contacts and relube them ( for my own cars I don't buy new)

I believe most "improvements" detract from the original reliability of the "A".---but they can make for good therapy if you like to tinker, and profit for the economy, I have other projects to tinker with, my car has thrived on the neglect that the original designs reliability has allowed.

[Kevin in NJ]

Here is a bunch of stuff to chew on........

In listening to the Nurex guys at the flea markets I would say you can not trust what they say.

They are into actively selling their products. If you believe what they say at the flea markets then it truly is a wonder how the A worked before their products. If you try to ask some valid questions when they have a crowd around their demo engine they get nasty and will not answer the question. BTW, the main question we ask is how much current the alt will actually output when installed on the A with the small pulley. They got very defensive and refused to answer the question.
Years before I remember just listening them tell a crowd about how the original generator was nothing but part just ready to fail and you MUST have an alt to expect reliable operation.
In the end, they are into selling you their products.

From a simpler stand point, Ford issued a plate to redirect heat from the exhaust manifold to increase life of the early condensers. You must keep in perspective the early condensers used inferior chemical electrolytes that would dry out fast in the plain paper. Today they use modern plastics and electrolytes that can last a very long time if you choose to purchase that type of condenser.

We are all real quite to make some assumptions about heat inside and outside the dist. The dist is going to reach some end point temp based on how fast heat goes in and goes out. You also get a temp spike when the engine is shut down and the heat concentrates and there is not air moving to allow the heat to leave. I do not know, but is it possible that the condenser in the cap sees a higher temp at some point then the original one. Keep in mind condensers do not fail from use so much as exposure to conditions that break down the chemicals inside.

Not that people want to hear this. There is a great variation in how engines run. A engine that was carefully assembled such that the rust was pulled from inside the engine, the valves were set up properly with a good cam and so on is going to run cooler. An engine with a small valve problem, a small timing problem, less then ideal cooling, and a carb off a little can lead to an engine that runs hotter.

I work as an electronics engineer and have played quite a bit in repair what ever. It is interesting to find how modern devices are intentionally designed to fail. A great example from the 90's was a VCR that had this power supply section. It was an area a few inches long and wide. The two major components were a power resistor (something that gets hot) and the filter electrolytic capacitor (like used on the dist). The section could have been built with a couple of inch separation between the heat source and the cap, but no they were located next to each other. All this type of VCR failed at about the same time. It took a $.20 part to fix the problem.

There was another type of cap problem on the Dell computers. The motherboard manufacturer bought caps from a company that stole the electrolyte formula from another company, but they did not get the full formula. The caps were exploding on the motherboards causing them to fail.

So what does this all mean, well you would not know how to tell good from bad with the caps. The modern type caps you would be using could come from many sources. The car parts business is fickle these days. My brother sees it every day. Some some is great and others stuff is crap and it can be from the same main source. Those little ignition caps are almost a zero market cause what really uses them anymore? So just where are they going to get them from and what do they care if they do not work right?
You guys that change out good ones with new thinking that you are doing good might be very wrong and it will only get worse with time.
My thinking is that the part you get from A&L is likely to be a better specified part. A&L has been in business to sell cheap parts, they seem to try there best to sell a good product. The cost difference between a quality condenser and a cheap on is probably pennies at worse maybe a dollar.
Nurex and other modern suppliers get what ever condenser that comes along. There are probably several sources for the modern style condensers. Who knows where the big suppliers are getting their stock to sell. This week it could be from a good company and next week a crap one. Keep in mind this could even be Ford who is supplying the parts.

Pretty much everyone that has put a burn out proof condenser on their has not had a failure since, least that is what I have been hearing. My brothers car would go throw condensers like candy till the mid 80's when he put on the burn out proof condenser.

A final note.

If you are constantly playing with your dist then you did not rebuild it right.
Unless you are doing tens of thousands of miles a year on your car there are only 3 things you will need to do to your dist.
Lube the shaft.
Lube the cam.
Adjust the points once in a great while. (Once the wear block is worn into the cam)

It is a proven fact that the original dist will run for tens of years with minimal effort with the right selection of parts. One example is my brother's car that has been running the used original type aftermarket points that came with the car in 1970.

[Glenn C.]

A new design of contact is available, that is used between the lower and upper plate of the distributor, is available from Snyders, and probably other suppliers, which supposedly should aleviate intermitant arcing and conductivity problems between the two plates. Part No. A-12148-WLM (Modern Plate Adapter) Clip now has a lip that pervents the clip from rotating and has a round contact formed to improve contact between plates.

[Colonel Biggs]

I appreciate the time that folks have taken to addess my condenser question. I just spoke with Bob at A&L, and his take was that the burn-out proof condenser should work just fine, but that there are many out there who swear by the modern plate from experience. You pays yer money and takes yer choice, I guess.

I have also contacted Nu-Rex, asking if they have any statistics pertaining to the expected life of the Ford condensers in their particular setup. I don't expect to hear from them until tomorrow or so. And, they may well not address the issue specifically. Will report back.

GB

[Dave in Boise]

For what it's worth, I have driver cars that will often take tours of 300miles or more in the summer heat... After some modern condenser failures on the nu-rex type of upper plates, I have mounted the condenser on the firewall, attaching it via the bolt that holds the coil to the firewall and running the lead to the output post of the coil. It's seemed to work much better there, and is pretty unobtrusive and can be quickly pulled and replaces if any future problems arise.. It stays much cooler next to the coil. I think it's more a failure of the quality of the condenser rather than an issue with the design of the nu-rex

- Dave in Boise

[Purdy Swoft]

I've got to agree with Kurt and Kevin. I have used the modern points and condenser in a couple of my model A's and had nothing but problems, mostly with the points. I now only run original points in all of my model A's. I have been running the same original type points and burn out proof condenser from Brattons in my 31 tudor for eleven years with no problems. Original condensers can be difficult to replace. If the modern condenser is used, it can be mounted to the coil bracket and connect the pig tail to the switch side of the coil. The condenser will run cooler and should last longer if mounted on the coil bracket.

[cars56]

Re-placed the modern distibutor recently
Was running the version with the contact strip that contacts the lower plate. Ran well for awhile then she shorted
Back to traditional plates, find it so much faster and easier to set point gap with traditional and with a much improved pig tail wire I find it more reliable.
Yes, the manifold heat is always a concern but so far so good.

[RTC1930]

Another vote for the traditional plates... I've been fighting getting my motor to run right for the last few months with occasional skips, touchy advance, and lack of power. I finally took the Dizzy apart last night after reading this thread and of course the "wireless plate" terminal was apparently shorting to the distributor body. Had a bunch of black marks where it had arced. I had an old lower plate laying around so I soldered a new piece of high flex wire too it and ran it to the nu-rex upper. Took it out for a test drive tonight and can't believe the difference. So i believe it was not only shorting when I touched the advance but also limiting some of the current. I'm still running the Nu-rex upper plate but am ordering condenser and points to swap back to original if that starts acting up.

Bob

[dmaxweb]

Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft

I've got to agree with Kurt and Kevin. I have used the modern points and condenser in a couple of my model A's and had nothing but problems, mostly with the points. I now only run original points in all of my model A's. I have been running the same original type points and burn out proof condenser from Brattons in my 31 tudor for eleven years with no problems. Original condensers can be difficult to replace. If the modern condenser is used, it can be mounted to the coil bracket and connect the pig tail to the switch side of the coil. The condenser will run cooler and should last longer if mounted on the coil bracket.

Originally Posted by Dave in Boise

For what it's worth, I have driver cars that will often take tours of 300miles or more in the summer heat... After some modern condenser failures on the nu-rex type of upper plates, I have mounted the condenser on the firewall, attaching it via the bolt that holds the coil to the firewall and running the lead to the output post of the coil. It's seemed to work much better there, and is pretty unobtrusive and can be quickly pulled and replaces if any future problems arise.. It stays much cooler next to the coil. I think it's more a failure of the quality of the condenser rather than an issue with the design of the nu-rex

- Dave in Boise

Which post of the coil are these referring to?