Oil level

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by runnerbun

now that you have confirmed that you have the correct dipstick and that you are filling with the correct volume of oil you must assume that your problem is elsewhere. using 2 pints of oil in 40 miles is far from normal and should be addressed. Reducing the oil level to solve your problem would only be a band aid fix and also put you at risk of doing further damage to your engine.
There are many reasons for oil loss, more than likely your rear main bearing is very worn or badly damaged. Other problems which may also cause leaking include excess blow-by due to worn rings, restriction in your crank-case breather, oil return pipe in rear main may have broken off. Was your crankshaft modified to accept the modern rear main seal which has now failed.
Do you know the history of your engine. Is it just an old banger that has never been rebuilt. If it has had a rebuild, was it done by a competent builder. As mitch said in a previous post "a tight engine is capable of taking 5 quarts of oil without leaking.

excellent

ask your new car dealer if they recommend to run the oil 1/2 qt or more low and would it void the warranty?
these cars are no different

if i had a choice i would rather leak oil than run it low

[gadgetgeeza]

Thank you for your comments Runnerbun - and in principle I totally agree.
The car is a South African car now in the UK. The engine was 'rebuilt' in the 1990's by persons unknown and has done little work since. There is a ghost mark in the bores showing an extended period of inactivity. It starts on the button, pulls well, sounds sweet, very little vibration, never misses a beat, very little blue smoke, spotlessly clean inside and never overheats. Now it has stopped leaking oil at the slightly lower level I feel somewhat disinterested in taking it apart, spending loads of money for what seems to be little benefit. There's a few miles left in it yet.

[gadgetgeeza]

Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

excellent

ask your new car dealer if you run the oil low does it void the warranty?
these cars are no different

if i had a choice i would rather leak oil than run it low

I understand what you're saying but the reality is a Model A is very different to a modern car. Bearing sizes, seals, speed, stroke length, efficiency, compression ratio, oil pressure, splash/pressure lubrication, air and oil filters, tolerances, design life, dynamics/balance, engine management, gas flow, fuel injection, detergent oils, volume of oil..... They had to run on inferior lubricants, fuel and roads at much lower speeds.

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by gadgetgeeza

I understand what you're saying but the reality is a Model A is very different to a modern car. Bearing sizes, seals, speed, stroke length, efficiency, compression ratio, oil pressure, splash/pressure lubrication, air and oil filters, tolerances, design life, dynamics/balance, engine management, gas flow, fuel injection, detergent oils, volume of oil..... They had to run on inferior lubricants, fuel and roads at much lower speeds.

bottom line is the proper specification for crankcase capacity...

[mshmodela]

Keep the oil level near "F" and toss it often (if you're not using a filter) oil is cheap...

[gadgetgeeza]

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Originally Posted by mshmodela

Keep the oil level near "F" and toss it often (if your not using a filter) oil is cheap...

Oil is very cheap - but it does make a mess. From this thread I am happy that the oil level that my motor has 'chosen' is just above the LOW mark but still within the recommended range - that's good enough for me.

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by gadgetgeeza

Oil is very cheap - but it does make a mess. From this thread I am happy that the oil level that my motor has 'chosen' is just above the LOW mark but still within the recommended range - that's good enough for me.

since when is driving a quart low recommended

[George Miller]

If the engine leaks with the right amount of oil. You have a problem with the engine..

[BlueSunoco]

Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

since when is driving a quart low recommended

My thoughts exactly Mitch. If you watch the 1928 DVD from MAFCA, 'Selling Ford Service' (very good video by the way) watch what the dealer says to the fellow who just bought a new 1928 Tudor. He is showing him around the car, opens the hood on the driver's side, shows him the dipstick and pulls it out, points to the 'F' mark and he says 'KEEP THE OIL HERE, ON THE FULL MARK "F"'.

Doesn't tell him to 'Keep it on the "L" mark which is 'Low'. or else the motor will leak oil. This is it's sweet spot

[Larry Seemann]

Like James Rogers I recommend keeping the oil level between F and L. Here's why: When running the valve galley is full of oil. When the engine is shut off the oil drains back to the oil pan and a lot of it drains back through the rear main oil return tube. It's designed that way and is the primary reason why the rear of the engine is lower than the front. If the oil level in the pan is too high the oil doesn't go through the return tube as fast as it does if the level in the pan is below the tube opening so some of the oil finds it's way out the back of the rear main bearing - there will always be a little clearance there where the oil can find it's way out. Remember there is no rear main SEAL. So, if the level in the pan is low enough that the return tube is not submerged the oil drains back more quickly and less oil tries to sneak out the back. That's why Ford put the hole and the large cotter pin in the flywheel housing. He knew some people would keep the oil full and some would leak out the back.

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by Larry Seemann

Like James Rogers I recommend keeping the oil level between F and L. Here's why: When running the valve galley is full of oil. When the engine is shut off the oil drains back to the oil pan and a lot of it drains back through the rear main oil return tube. It's designed that way and is the primary reason why the rear of the engine is lower than the front. If the oil level in the pan is too high the oil doesn't go through the return tube as fast as it does if the level in the pan is below the tube opening so some of the oil finds it's way out the back of the rear main bearing - there will always be a little clearance there where the oil can find it's way out. Remember there is no rear main SEAL. So, if the level in the pan is low enough that the return tube is not submerged the oil drains back more quickly and less oil tries to sneak out the back. That's why Ford put the hole and the large cotter pin in the flywheel housing. He knew some people would keep the oil full and some would leak out the back.

isnt the rear main drain tube always submerged in oil at 4 qts or 5 qts?
if it wasnt crankcase blowby pressures will force oil out the rear main and create a leak..the same as if the tube fell off or was cut to short..

i believe ford put the hole in the flywheel housing as a safety measure for the oil to escape when a motor was in need of having the clearances tightened or the babbitt was just worn out.
not because your running the level at the proper spec.

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by BlueSunoco

My thoughts exactly Mitch. If you watch the 1928 DVD from MAFCA, 'Selling Ford Service' (very good video by the way) watch what the dealer says to the fellow who just bought a new 1928 Tudor. He is showing him around the car, opens the hood on the driver's side, shows him the dipstick and pulls it out, points to the 'F' mark and he says 'KEEP THE OIL HERE, ON THE FULL MARK "F"'.

Doesn't tell him to 'Keep it on the "L" mark which is 'Low'. or else the motor will leak oil. This is it's sweet spot

i never saw that video but it makes a point for sure. 85 years later rules and theorys seem to magically change

[Larry Jenkins]

FWIW.. A Model A old timer I knew, who has now left this world, said to use only 4.5 quarts to prevent oil loss.

Who knows? Hey Henry!!

Larry

[Mike V. Florida]

Proper Oil Level
Before starting the engine, make sure there is a sufficient
supply of high-grade engine oil in the oil pan. If there is not
enough oil, more should be added through the breather pipe
located at the left side of the engine (a metal cap covers it).
Five quarts of oil is the amount required in the oil pan.
To determine the correct oil level, use the indicator located
on the left side of the engine just to the rear of the breather pipe
(see Fig. 1), as follows:
Pull out the indicator--wipe it off-re-insert the
indicator and again remove it.
The mark made by the oil indicates its level. When the oil
reaches the point marked "F" on the indicator, it is at the
proper level. Under no circumstances should the oil level be
permitted to get below the point marked "L" as any attempt to
run the engine with too little oil may seriously damage the parts.
When replacing the oil level indicator, see that both the short
and long ends of the indicator enter the opening in the crankcase
and push the indicator all the way down (see Fig. 1).
Failure to insert both ends into the opening permits oil to
leak out.

[gadgetgeeza]

Thanks Mike. As I suspected - the F means Full and L means Low (not empty). It does not mean Essential and Unacceptable. Any point in between is OK. So if I maintain my engine oil closer, but above L to prevent it leaking, and under no circumstances below L my warranty should be ok.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Gadget, FWIW going back to my post at the beginning of this, as well as considering a comment you made (I think, admittedly not taking the time to re-read this now lengthy thread) about maintianing engine status quo (my words, i.e. not looking to rebuild at this time & keep it running), I would just share this. IMO a good practice to top off knowing you will lose some each time you run the car, and in my experience only, not speaking for others here, I found that I would lose a certain amount of oil whenever the level was closer to F than L, but it did not ever go lower. In other words, I never encountered a dry stick. This is with an essentially sound (easy starting in any condition, good running, no noises or smoke at all) but older engine with a badly leaking rear main. I think, if your intent is not to rebuild soon and your not planning a cross country trip, or otherwise really tax it, your OK if you do not find the stick dry. Just my opinion based on my experience, had the car a long time and never got around to the rear main, which for the use we put on it at the time, maybe 300 - 500 miles a year, was fine. It all depends on where you are with the car.

I know Mitch know his stuff and I believe he is correct on the tube location, but I thought it might be helpful to share the experience I had, my approach, (fill to F and let it leak out, figuring might as well start out in best possible light, but it would continiously find that level closer to the L mark and stay consistently - I learned this after monitoring due to concerns similar to what you seem to have), While not what I would expect from a fresh engine, I do not think your engine is in iminent danger given much closer monitoring of oil level than the average owner likely did back when these were new or relatively new used cars.

[gadgetgeeza]

Originally Posted by Steve_Mack_CT

Gadget, FWIW going back to my post at the beginning of this, as well as considering a comment you made (I think, admittedly not taking the time to re-read this now lengthy thread) about maintianing engine status quo (my words, i.e. not looking to rebuild at this time & keep it running), I would just share this. IMO a good practice to top off knowing you will lose some each time you run the car, and in my experience only, not speaking for others here, I found that I would lose a certain amount of oil whenever the level was closer to F than L, but it did not ever go lower. In other words, I never encountered a dry stick. This is with an essentially sound (easy starting in any condition, good running, no noises or smoke at all) but older engine with a badly leaking rear main. I think, if your intent is not to rebuild soon and your not planning a cross country trip, or otherwise really tax it, your OK if you do not find the stick dry. Just my opinion based on my experience, had the car a long time and never got around to the rear main, which for the use we put on it at the time, maybe 300 - 500 miles a year, was fine. It all depends on where you are with the car.

I know Mitch know his stuff and I believe he is correct on the tube location, but I thought it might be helpful to share the experience I had, my approach, (fill to F and let it leak out, figuring might as well start out in best possible light, but it would continiously find that level closer to the L mark and stay consistently - I learned this after monitoring due to concerns similar to what you seem to have), While not what I would expect from a fresh engine, I do not think your engine is in iminent danger given much closer monitoring of oil level than the average owner likely did back when these were new or relatively new used cars.

Thanks Steve_Mack. I have heard it said that an engine runs best of all at the end of it's life. I take this as a warning, but it is running far too well to justify an expensive rebuild now. I've been running vintage machinery for over 45 years so do have some experience in this. It does get quite a bit of use through the year - it is the only vintage car in the UK to be licensed for commercial Private Hire use - I trade as www.vintageadventuretours.co.uk doing about 8000 miles per year. There is a spare rebuilt engine in the garage just in case. I will make a note to give feedback this time next year on this thread to let you know if it has survived.
I am a great believer that perfection, although ideal, is hard (and expensive) to achieve, but less than perfect is still good and brings a lot of stress free fun.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

So that "A" is earning its keep - cool. Lots of interesting antique/vintage/specialty cars in the UK! A little OT but our other big car interest is in Mercedes Benz SL series cars which seem to have a big following in the UK despite being German. I initially learned a lot from some of the experts on those cars on your side of the pond. While not a true exotic, the all aluminum, DOHC engine and other technology in our SL is a constant reminder of how simple our Model A and T cars are to work on.

Would love an MG T-series car someday; although it may be just for looks. I tried a TC on for size this past fall and our Ford A roadster is a LOT easier to enter and exit. Good motivation to finaly drop those 30 pounds I guess...

Happy Motoring!

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

Proper Oil Level
Before starting the engine, make sure there is a sufficient
supply of high-grade engine oil in the oil pan. If there is not
enough oil, more should be added through the breather pipe
located at the left side of the engine (a metal cap covers it).
Five quarts of oil is the amount required in the oil pan.
To determine the correct oil level, use the indicator located
on the left side of the engine just to the rear of the breather pipe
(see Fig. 1), as follows:
Pull out the indicator--wipe it off-re-insert the
indicator and again remove it.
The mark made by the oil indicates its level. When the oil
reaches the point marked "F" on the indicator, it is at the
proper level. Under no circumstances should the oil level be
permitted to get below the point marked "L" as any attempt to
run the engine with too little oil may seriously damage the parts.
When replacing the oil level indicator, see that both the short
and long ends of the indicator enter the opening in the crankcase
and push the indicator all the way down (see Fig. 1).
Failure to insert both ends into the opening permits oil to
leak out.

i stand by my statements on the correct and reccommended proper level.

[gadgetgeeza]

Originally Posted by Steve_Mack_CT

So that "A" is earning its keep - cool. Lots of interesting antique/vintage/specialty cars in the UK! A little OT but our other big car interest is in Mercedes Benz SL series cars which seem to have a big following in the UK despite being German. I initially learned a lot from some of the experts on those cars on your side of the pond. While not a true exotic, the all aluminum, DOHC engine and other technology in our SL is a constant reminder of how simple our Model A and T cars are to work on.

Would love an MG T-series car someday; although it may be just for looks. I tried a TC on for size this past fall and our Ford A roadster is a LOT easier to enter and exit. Good motivation to finaly drop those 30 pounds I guess...

Happy Motoring!

Steve -We have a strong motoring following here in the UK. Loads of events going on - racing, trials, hill climbs, sprints, navigation and shows. The A has only recently been recognised here for just how good it is. And there are plenty of right hand drive cars for us - mine is from South Africa. The availability of parts is the clincher.

Mitch - You are of course right every time, but IMHO these cars mustn't be taken too seriously - 'Under no circumstances should the oil level be
permitted to get below the point marked "L" ' - is just fine.

Remember the old Dodge Brothers video - it's more fun getting them dirty than it is getting them clean.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=nq2jY1trxqg