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Old 09-23-2015, 08:59 AM   #1
Hoogah
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Default Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitch//PA in the "What's it worth" thread:

"I lose so much time and labor on non fitting / defective aftermarket parts.....its getting worse and worse"

I've wondered about this issue for some time, but Mitch and Rowdy's exchange in the above thread has finally caused me to ask the following question:
Why do we collectively accept parts that don't fit / work? In any other line of business, defective parts are returned to the supplier, a refund issued, feedback provided to the maker, who improves his game in order to stay in business. It's Business Economics 101!

Why does this model of business not apply to the companies that make the parts we purchase? Are we our own worst enemies when we feebly accept that we must modify a part that should fit/work first time?

I don't get it.
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Old 09-23-2015, 09:05 AM   #2
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Default Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts

Hoogah,
It takes a lots of time & B.S. to get a change made, just like in Congress. "Maybe" changes will be made, after we DIE!!
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Old 09-23-2015, 09:42 AM   #3
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Default Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts

I usually stay out of threads like this but felt compelled to respond to defend the fact that we have parts out there.

I think you and all of us should be thankful that we have parts out there for our almost 90 year old cars that are as good as they are and plentiful. Imagine if you couldn't pick up the phone and call Snyders, Brattons, Berts,Mikes, and others. You had to work with the parts you had and search out for better. What would that do to the price of them and ease of restoring and servicing the cars?

No, they all aren't perfect but then neither are we. Life is not unfortunately...
We should be thankful for the vendors and suppliers that have invested, taken the time, energy, and fortitude to supply what we have.. which is way better than they were 20 years ago or more. It may be those haven't been in it long enough to appreciate what we have now. Reproduction bodies, fenders, mechanical parts that almost every car out there wouldn't be on the road without them. If you don't like it, return it.... if it takes a little work to make it right and better than do it if you want.
You have a choice... restore your original or buy the reproduction if need be and desired. It's just that simple.

I for one am thankful for the resources we have and those that have gotten it done. I do think it's good to give constructive feedback to them on the issues and problems, and that hopefully improvements and certainly awareness to the issue be made.

It may be that "business 101" as you said might not deem it feesable to retool or remake parts that may in fact have been produced for many years. If you can do better at them than I would encourage you to do so and then that would be more "Business 101" and let market competition prevail.

Sure I struck a nerve here .. but I for one am thankful instead of critical.
Larry Shepard
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Old 09-23-2015, 09:48 AM   #4
Kevin in NJ
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Default Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts

It is complicated. I have learned a few things over the years.

First is the maker getting correct feedback.
Two things happen that they have to sort through.

You can get people that are clueless and do not understand how to proper install the part or have other bad parts that may make yours part look bad.

You get little or no feedback. Turns out most of the time people get a part and work with it and never talk to the right people about their experiences.

Then there is making a part.
An example I will use is what you might think is a simple panel. The lower rear cross panel for a 28-29 coupe. The repro is flat across the top and does not have the right sizes or proper doublers.
One person looked into what it would take to have the part made correct. The tooling would cost in excess of like $125,000. The part would also require a special run of steel to be able to make the shape. Your only option is to buy a huge roll from the mill. So to make it worth while he would have to sell a lot at like $200 each. People complain when they have to spend the $40 for the bad repro. There was no way to make the part without losing a lot of money.

Then there even finding companies the will make the part. I talked to one well known parts house and the guy told me some of their problems getting parts made. They take the Ford prints and go out for bids to get parts made. No one submits a bid. At times I think they feel lucky to get some kind of part made.

So it is just not as easy as you think to get parts made right. This coming from someone who has cursed the repro parts as much as everyone else. I am also willing at times to lay out money for NOS parts where needed.

So when you are using a repro part and find an issue, explain what you find here on the Fordbarn and let the dealer know. I believe most of the dealers are watching the boards and learning from what they read. Some even participate regularly, Bert's seems to be a stand out business from that respect.

The dealers are trying to make things better, but it not easy to do.
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Old 09-23-2015, 10:29 AM   #5
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Default Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts

just to clarify our exchange was regarding the MODERN repo parts market.....

Last edited by Mitch//pa; 09-23-2015 at 10:38 AM.
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Old 09-23-2015, 10:36 AM   #6
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Default Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts

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Model A people ARE lucky to have the parts we have. Even some of the NOS stuff didn't really fit right, like they were factory rejects sent on to the dealers to let them make the parts work

I imagine restoring a '28-'31 Chevy is a bit of a nightmare. Never mind a Graham, Paige, Auburn, what have you.

I guess it comes back to what Brent Terry has said for years---- take your original part and try like heck to restore it and put it back in service. Harder route to go but sometimes the best advice.
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Old 09-23-2015, 10:37 AM   #7
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Default Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts

Quote:
Originally Posted by larrys40 View Post
I usually stay out of threads like this but felt compelled to respond to defend the fact that we have parts out there.

I think you and all of us should be thankful that we have parts out there for our almost 90 year old cars that are as good as they are and plentiful. Imagine if you couldn't pick up the phone and call Snyders, Brattons, Berts,Mikes, and others. You had to work with the parts you had and search out for better. What would that do to the price of them and ease of restoring and servicing the cars?

No, they all aren't perfect but then neither are we. Life is not unfortunately...
We should be thankful for the vendors and suppliers that have invested, taken the time, energy, and fortitude to supply what we have.. which is way better than they were 20 years ago or more. It may be those haven't been in it long enough to appreciate what we have now. Reproduction bodies, fenders, mechanical parts that almost every car out there wouldn't be on the road without them. If you don't like it, return it.... if it takes a little work to make it right and better than do it if you want.
You have a choice... restore your original or buy the reproduction if need be and desired. It's just that simple.

I for one am thankful for the resources we have and those that have gotten it done. I do think it's good to give constructive feedback to them on the issues and problems, and that hopefully improvements and certainly awareness to the issue be made.

It may be that "business 101" as you said might not deem it feesable to retool or remake parts that may in fact have been produced for many years. If you can do better at them than I would encourage you to do so and then that would be more "Business 101" and let market competition prevail.

Sure I struck a nerve here .. but I for one am thankful instead of critical.
Larry Shepard
Larry. I could not agree with you more! Nobody is perfect and it is unrealistic to expect others to be! Great post! Wayne
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Old 09-23-2015, 12:36 PM   #8
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Default Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts

I once asked Al Lepore of A&L paarts why he did not make a headlamp socket asssembly, as the repros were really poor. He said it would cost $10,000 to make the tooling, back then. How many would you need to sell to break even?
I am glad we have what is available, even though some is rather poor quality. There are parts that are made by more than one supplier, and the quality varies. I had a customer bring me rumble lid stop brackets from Mac's and they looked like they were made in India in someone's back yard with a hammer. I told him to get better ones, and he ordered from Bratton, and they were correct, and much stronger. It pays to shop around.
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Old 09-23-2015, 12:45 PM   #9
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Default Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts

Just to throw a little more fuel on the fire...we may live long enough to see restorers using 3-D printers to replicate parts. I just saw an auction with three of the printers for sale, so it's no longer "new" tecnology.

I do understand that the cost of making a steel part with one of these is very expensive. The fellow that made a working 1911 Colt, 45 acp, said it cost well over a hundred thousand for the first one...if memory servces.

But the day will probably come where the garage owner will get all his parts this way....just punch in the numbers and the copier spits out the parts. Who remembers how much carbon paper and typwrites a company used to burn through.

Just saying, we only have to live to be a couple of hundred years old to have easy access to the parts!
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Old 09-23-2015, 02:23 PM   #10
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Default Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts

Quote:
Originally Posted by larrys40 View Post
I usually stay out of threads like this but felt compelled to respond to defend the fact that we have parts out there.

I think you and all of us should be thankful that we have parts out there for our almost 90 year old cars that are as good as they are and plentiful. Imagine if you couldn't pick up the phone and call Snyders, Brattons, Berts,Mikes, and others. You had to work with the parts you had and search out for better. What would that do to the price of them and ease of restoring and servicing the cars?

No, they all aren't perfect but then neither are we. Life is not unfortunately...
We should be thankful for the vendors and suppliers that have invested, taken the time, energy, and fortitude to supply what we have.. which is way better than they were 20 years ago or more. It may be those haven't been in it long enough to appreciate what we have now. Reproduction bodies, fenders, mechanical parts that almost every car out there wouldn't be on the road without them. If you don't like it, return it.... if it takes a little work to make it right and better than do it if you want.
You have a choice... restore your original or buy the reproduction if need be and desired. It's just that simple.

I for one am thankful for the resources we have and those that have gotten it done. I do think it's good to give constructive feedback to them on the issues and problems, and that hopefully improvements and certainly awareness to the issue be made.

It may be that "business 101" as you said might not deem it feesable to retool or remake parts that may in fact have been produced for many years. If you can do better at them than I would encourage you to do so and then that would be more "Business 101" and let market competition prevail.

Sure I struck a nerve here .. but I for one am thankful instead of critical.
Larry Shepard
I hear what you are saying and the realities you describe make sense, bit some people ask, for example, how a repro hood shelf for the '29s gets made with a mounting hole mis-located. Or how the repro light switch, for example, which as produced, seems not exactly the simplest thing to reproduce and must take some skill and detail , still doesn't get made to be workable.
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Old 09-23-2015, 02:57 PM   #11
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Default Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts

Not point to any post specifically but let me start by asking "why" do you need a reproduction part? For example, someone mentioned a stop light switch. 'WHY' is a stop light switch needed? In reality, there are many used ones out there that would serve well as a core for restoring. Is the issue that the "new widget" purchaser does not have the ability to restore it, -or is it a case where they do not want to spend the effort (too lazy.)??

My personal perspective on much of this is we have chosen the avenue with the least amount of friction. If the price of the new brake light switch was $100, then we might just choose to find & restore an original one. I think that mindset drives the quality & pricing of many new repro parts. gain, I can prove it scenario after scenario where a better quality item was offered and people balked at the price until the quality item is no longer being produced.
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Old 09-23-2015, 03:25 PM   #12
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Default Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts

In my Humble OP. For me if you can not make it right, do not make it at all. How long would your engine last if all parts were wrong.
After many years of maching parts it is not that hard to get them right. Ether they do not know how or they do not care. Sheet metal may be another thing. I'm not a sheet metal guy. If I was I would not make parts to sale if I could not make them right.
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Old 09-23-2015, 03:54 PM   #13
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Default Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts

In relation to giving feedback, I used to buy a lot of stuff from Snyders and on one or two occasions, I gave them feedback which was never acted upon. It was only last week that I tried to contact them again after Mike V in Florida said that he had let them know of the trouble anybody outside the US has contacting them. My message encountered an "Unexpected Error" again. This leads me to comment Snyders won't listen to feedback anyway so why would anybody expect them to take any action. Hopeless!
I've since started buying elsewhere.
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Old 09-23-2015, 04:15 PM   #14
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Default Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C View Post
Not point to any post specifically but let me start by asking "why" do you need a reproduction part? For example, someone mentioned a stop light switch. 'WHY' is a stop light switch needed? In reality, there are many used ones out there that would serve well as a core for restoring. Is the issue that the "new widget" purchaser does not have the ability to restore it, -or is it a case where they do not want to spend the effort (too lazy.)??

My personal perspective on much of this is we have chosen the avenue with the least amount of friction. If the price of the new brake light switch was $100, then we might just choose to find & restore an original one. I think that mindset drives the quality & pricing of many new repro parts. gain, I can prove it scenario after scenario where a better quality item was offered and people balked at the price until the quality item is no longer being produced.
Well, since I brought it up, I will answer the "why". I can only speak for myself but I really don't have the life situation to troll swap meets in distant places in endless pursuit of a desirable unit at an acceptable price.

As to your second thought, I can't dispute a correlation between reproduction cost and restoration cost but I also think availability is a factor.
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Old 09-23-2015, 04:32 PM   #15
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Default Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts

In the end, everything said above is correct-it always comes down to money and the model A is not a "growing" hobby, so count your blessings on whatever parts you get whether new or old. still easy to find A parts............
Have owned many "orphan" cars and parts are impossible to get wo doing major machine work.
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Old 09-23-2015, 04:47 PM   #16
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Default Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts

Like others mixed emotions. I have only had a model A a few years and love the fact that almost any part is available and would prefer them to fit right but still glad to see parts.
For years I owned and sold 40's - 50's dodges and plymouths and spare parts do not exist so I always had to have a parts cars around to complete a car well enough to get it back on road.

Other thought I would have are the parts actually from different vendors or do they just sell the same parts from a few major manufactures.
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Old 09-23-2015, 05:01 PM   #17
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Default Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts

Quote:
Originally Posted by larrys40 View Post
I think you and all of us should be thankful that we have parts out there for our almost 90 year old cars that are as good as they are and plentiful. Imagine if you couldn't pick up the phone and call Snyders, Brattons, Berts,Mikes, and others. You had to work with the parts you had and search out for better. What would that do to the price of them and ease of restoring and servicing the cars?
. . . . . Sure I struck a nerve here .. but I for one am thankful instead of critical.
Larry Shepard
Don't get me wrong, Larry, I'm grateful, but I still don't get how parts suppliers can be proud of a product that doesn't fit without modification, or how parts makers even got to the point where they churn out a whole run of ill-fitting parts! Where was the testing phase?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin in NJ View Post
It is complicated. I have learned a few things over the years. . . . .First is the maker getting correct feedback. . . . So when you are using a repro part and find an issue, explain what you find here on the Fordbarn and let the dealer know?
Surely this must not be happening and we are to blame?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitch//pa View Post
just to clarify our exchange was regarding the MODERN repo parts market.....
Sorry for the mis-quote Mitch, but it doesn't matter now, I guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericr View Post
I hear what you are saying and the realities you describe make sense, bit some people ask, for example, how a repro hood shelf for the '29s gets made with a mounting hole mis-located. Or how the repro light switch, for example, which as produced, seems not exactly the simplest thing to reproduce and must take some skill and detail , still doesn't get made to be workable.
Exactly my point. Why was this testing not done before a whole run of faulty parts was churned out? This is Business 101!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C View Post
Not point to any post specifically but let me start by asking "why" do you need a reproduction part?
I guess we're all coming from different places in terms of our resources, time and skill set. I'd rather use original parts on my survivor any day, but if it comes down to not driving my car for 2, 6, or.12 months while I find an original versus using a repro part and keep driving, somewhere I'm gonna compromise in order to keep enjoying the other 99.99% of my car!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synchro909 View Post
In relation to giving feedback, I used to buy a lot of stuff from Snyders and on one or two occasions, I gave them feedback which was never acted upon. It was only last week that I tried to contact them again after Mike V in Florida said that he had let them know of the trouble anybody outside the US has contacting them. My message encountered an "Unexpected Error" again. This leads me to comment Snyders won't listen to feedback anyway so why would anybody expect them to take any action. Hopeless!
I've since started buying elsewhere.
Business 101 not working at Snyders, but is alive and well at Synchro's house!
If we collectively and gently "pushed back" on this issue, surely things would get better.
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Old 09-23-2015, 05:24 PM   #18
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Default Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts

Synders, Berts, Brattons and Mike's really make an effort to deliver a good product to the hobby. There are many smaller suppliers out there that do a wonderful job...A&L was mentioned.
Really these folk aren't huge businesses I would guess they don't fly around the world with engineers. They do this 'cause the big boys won't is my take. We have to accept some compromises and to that end we are to some degree part of the issue. You can price yourself out of business, as Pogo said...We have met the enemy and he is us.

Thru' the years I have had many hobbies. One was collecting wind-up phonographs. If not reproductions stuff that was at best so-so the parts suppliers were supplying original stuff. The well is drying up.
Back those suppliers the best you can for w/o them for many it might be eBay, which has a place too.
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Old 09-23-2015, 06:57 PM   #19
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Default Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manycars View Post
I once asked Al Lepore of A&L paarts why he did not make a headlamp socket asssembly, as the repros were really poor. He said it would cost $10,000 to make the tooling, back then. How many would you need to sell to break even?
I am glad we have what is available, even though some is rather poor quality. There are parts that are made by more than one supplier, and the quality varies. I had a customer bring me rumble lid stop brackets from Mac's and they looked like they were made in India in someone's back yard with a hammer. I told him to get better ones, and he ordered from Bratton, and they were correct, and much stronger. It pays to shop around.
I assume that was some years ago and sure, that would be a bite for him alone, but if a price like that were able to be divided up among numerous dealers, suddenly it is not so prohibitive. In the same breath I realize not all retailers would participate and for that or any number of reasons such an endeavor would be complicated, not knowing the total picture of the business.
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Old 09-23-2015, 09:10 PM   #20
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Default Re: Non fitting / defective aftermarket parts

I once had a dear old friend who told me when i first got into Model A that the objective is to Restore the car and NOT replace it with jipo parts. Jipo is what he called after market parts. Yes he was old school.
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