copper fuel lines GOOD or BAD

[1952henry]

Seen many, many air compressors with copper lines from pump to tank. I think the copper lines outlive the pumps and/or tanks. Vibrations and heat/cool cycles abound on a compressor.

[dumb person]

i have copper brake hoses on a car but i had to secure them frequently, about every 12 inches. Copper should be ok for a fuel line if you have a flexible hose between the last mounting point & the carburettor. All these stories about them cracking make me wonder though.

[DavidG]

Perhaps you should also wonder why the automobile manufacturers do not today nor did they in the past use copper for fuel lines, especially in Ford's case where the copper-plated double-wall Bundy steel tubing was used at an obvious cost penalty.
Hmmm.

[Chuck Sea/Tac]

Originally Posted by bo8109b

I don't believe a copper fuel line secured to a frame rail will ever produce a problem. Have them in two old Fords. Also have 1/4 copper brake lines on the gear legs of a Cessna 140 for 38 years. Lots of vibration there. Remember seeing copper lines on refrigeration units years ago. Yes I'm an old duffer.

Yes and as a Refg mechanic, they will break a flare, and work harden from vibration and crack.

[whizzernick]

Happy New Year to all ..
I did get a few fair answers but no good ones. I just to day talked to a person
who is smart with a good answer. Nothing wrong with copper. The reason no company ( Like FORD ) did not use copper is cost . to me that sounds simple....
follow the money or lack of it. I still would like to get a reason from a sicence point of view. I also wish I could spell ( all that wasted time in the corner )

[DavidG]

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Your friend is misinformed. Please re-read my note. In the era and likely still today double-walled wrapped copper-plated Bundy tubing costs more than copper tubing. That's a copper-plated sheet of steel wrapped around itself twice, i.e. two separate walls of steel fused together by the copper plating in a unique welding process which gives greater strength and the same level of corrosion protection than any pure or alloy single wall copper tubing.

[Neal]

Flared ends on a copper line will work harden when forming the flare. That is why it is common to have the crack to develop at the flare. If I use copper lines, I would only use compression fittings.

Neal

[whizzernick]

Originally Posted by DavidG

Perhaps you should also wonder why the automobile manufacturers do not today nor did they in the past use copper for fuel lines, especially in Ford's case where the copper-plated double-wall Bundy steel tubing was used at an obvious cost penalty.
Hmmm.

Originally Posted by DavidG

Your friend is misinformed. Please re-read my note. In the era and likely still today double-walled wrapped copper-plated Bundy tubing costs more than copper tubing. That's a copper-plated sheet of steel wrapped around itself twice, i.e. two separate walls of steel fused together by the copper plating in a unique welding process which gives greater strength and the same level of corrosion protection than any pure or alloy single wall copper tubing.

I have been around fords MOST OF MY LIFE and have never heard of
double-walled wrapped copper-plated Bundy tubing costs more than copper tubing . I have several original gas lines and they are all rusted some very bad. I guess you should explain this product.
I know someone will sell you a original stlye 33-34 gas line (1/4 " for gas and 1/16" for air line for fuel guage. It is very pricey... I am open to learning. That is why I asked the question.
thank you for any more information
Nick

[Kube]

This topic has been kicked around time and time again.Let's call a spade a spade huh? All of those that respond "I've been doing it that way for years...". All I derive from that is these guys have been taking an unnecessary risk for many years and are either cheap and / or too lazy to do this job correctly.
I have to ask (yet again) why anyone would choose to use copper vs. the authentic copper plated steel lines? Cost? Perhaps but the difference is slight between the copper and correct plated steel. Ease of installation? Most likely.
Does anyone believe old Henry would not have installed copper lines if there was not a distinct disadvantage? I doubt it very much. Plated lines at the time our Fords were produced were much more costly than copper and more difficult (read: time consuming) to install. Then, like now, plated steel is the safe and intelligent way to go.
I am from the (unfortunately "old") school of : "Do it once - do it correctly".
That disallows the use of copper.

[ford3]

just to make things a little clearer, there is not a racing sancitioning body in the world that allows copper fuel lines, that goes along with the auto industry, none use copper for fuel lines, i wonder why some guys insist on using copper when the auto industry pays there engineers top dollar to design these motors, all say use steel lines for fuel, why is that? are you smarter than the designers? man i hope you dont think that

[rotorwrench]

This is in response to the mention of the use of copper tubing in aircraft.

Aircraft used copper for fluid lines back in the early days of experimentation but it didn't take long to stop the practice. The tubing used today is either 5052-O aluminum or stainless steel. The only items that still use any copper are spark plug gaskets and other types of gaskets & crush seal rings. I still reanneal the spark plug gaskets at every 100-hour inspection to keep them soft & sealing well.

Unlike automobiles, aircraft are issued an airworthiness certificate by the FAA at the date of manufacture. That little piece of paper states on it that the aircraft must be maintained in accordance with that manufacturer's type certificate specifications. What all that boils down to is that you can't legaly install anything but the OEM parts, FAA-PMA approved parts, or parts locally manufactured in accordance with either manufacturer's specifications or the AC43.13-1B. If the manufacturer originally installed copper brake lines then there is no harm & no foul. If it was aluminum or stainless steel at manufacture then any mechanics performing repairs have to use what the manufacture recommend or they are in violation of the Federal Air Regulations and can lose their certification if a problem ever occurs with the affected component.

All that being mentioned, I think I would not mention installing copper tubing on an aircraft unless that was how it was originally configured or there is an approved 337 form showing the alteration was acceptable.

[ford38v8]

Nick, While you may have talked with a "smart Person", and you yourself have never heard of "Bundyweld" tubing, that doesn't rewrite the history of Fords relationship with the Bundy Tubing Company, going back to 1922, and forward through the Flathead era and beyond. Do a google search for TI Automotive (formerly Bundy Tubing) of Warren, Michigan. You'll be amazed at what an old dog can learn!

[deuce_roadster]

Thanks Roto--I was hoping you or another A&P would chime in.

[Tom Walker]

I love this kind of Ford Barn discussion. Every opinion under the sun! Heres my tuppenyworth (is that more or less than 2cents?) I don't believe any design engineer specified pure copper for brake line. If it looks like copper its probably one of the copper/nickel seamless tube materials that is great for brake lines.

The question was re copper for fuel line. I come from pre-war cars which all had them because that's all they had. We use solder fittings which work well, and anyway, flares and compression fittings wernt invented then.

So when I replaced my rotten '32 Tudors fuel line with copper it was because I had a bunch in stock. The fact that the last 18 inches before the fuel pump are braided synthetic hose, pushed onto the copper and hose-clipped, means it is not period correct and I should probably have my botty smacked

Cheers, Tom.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Tom Walker

I love this kind of Ford Barn discussion. Every opinion under the sun! Heres my tuppenyworth (is that more or less than 2cents?) I don't believe any design engineer specified pure copper for brake line. If it looks like copper its probably one of the copper/nickel seamless tube materials that is great for brake lines.

The question was re copper for fuel line. I come from pre-war cars which all had them because that's all they had. We use solder fittings which work well, and anyway, flares and compression fittings wernt invented then.

So when I replaced my rotten '32 Tudors fuel line with copper it was because I had a bunch in stock. The fact that the last 18 inches before the fuel pump are braided synthetic hose, pushed onto the copper and hose-clipped, means it is not period correct and I should probably have my botty smacked

Cheers, Tom.

Actually, compression fittings & flares had been around for MANY years prior to WWII.

[Henry Hopper]

http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/motors...-pipe-fittings

Opinions vary...but in today's world of super safety, Im sure if there was an issue with it, it would be banned...especially over here.

I work on a variety of refrigeration systems and some are very old with thousands of run hours and heating and cooling cycles, some quite extreme, although some fractures are encountered, they are very rare and usually due to poor installation.

Steel brake lines suffer from rust when attacked by salt and age.....and flexy rubber/ neoprene hoses perish also.Its all down to how you install and look after them.

As for copper fuel lines, ....as long as they are secure and connected by flexi hose at the motor end to compensate for the engine movement, then not a problem.

The very best line to use is Kunifer...the nickel/ copper alloy...super strong,maluable,rustproof,and only peanuts more than pure copper.

[oldblue]

I use the nickel/copper alloy , it's absolutely wonderful to work with .

[BILL WZOREK]

Henry Hopper:

I was always told Refrigeration Copper tubing had a different make up then automotive copper tubing. In that it was softer and easer to bend and flair.
So maybe that is why it does not have as much breakage.
This may be the same copper tubing that is used on air compressers eliminating problems there as well.

[ford38v8]

As Henry Hopper said, Kunifer is better than pure copper, but the question was about copper, not a copper-nickel alloy.

Everyone has an opinion. Here's mine: I can think of only two metals that work better than an alloy: Gold bars and Silver ingots.

[trevo]

Kunifer 90-10 copper nickel pipe since 1969 has been adopted by all major car manufacturers for brake lines.Copper tube comes in several forms Refridgeration cu, Ridgid cu, Soft cu, none of these should be used on brake lines but have historically been used as suitable for fuels. I have a July 1941 John Chambers flyer showing all the available brass replacement SAE [Society of Automotive Engineers]compression couplings, tees,elbows,straight joiners, flare nuts, all of which are exactly as you can purchase these days anything good and accepted as standard like round wheels doesnt change