Question about using Brumfield head

[mcgarrett]

Originally Posted by oldspert

Mike, Looks like he was polishing the combustion chambers to maybe equalize the CC's, much like hot rodders do when prepping heads for performance. I do have a burette to do this measurement if you need.
Ed

Ed,
I'll need your assistance doing what you suggested. Thanks!

[Chris in WNC]

OFF-TOPIC, sort of.....

Originally Posted by Gary WA

It was never noted in his obituary.

Where & when was the obit published?
Searched for it in Waco TX with no results.

I liked him and his HC heads, but he always had very strong opinions.

[mcgarrett]

Marshall,
I do have new head studs and nuts ready to install for this build. Fortunately, all the studs had been removed from the engine before I bought it, so that will make checking the threads in the stud holes much easier. I'm glad I learned about installing the studs finger tight only. I did not know that previously. I assumed (wrongly) that all studs were mechanically installed to be tight, so that was important and timely information for me. Did you use the Best head gasket or the FelPro? Just curious.

[Bruce of MN]

Use a thread chaser, not a tap, to keep from removing metal and preserve the full thread profile, if it is still there.

FWIW, I have this https://www.toolsid.com/lang-tools/2...-mpn-2581.html

[Marshall V. Daut]

I followed Larry's recommendations for head gasket and always used the 7013 with copper adhesive spray on both sides. I think he was recommending the 7013C gasket towards the end of his manufacturing days, as I recall. If you follow Larry's instructions on your resurfaced block and check the head to be sure it is not too far out of spec, you should be o.k. with the new studs and nuts. Just keep re-torquing the head until you are sick to death of doing it. THEN the head should be seated.
M.

[Ruth]

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Originally Posted by Bruce of MN

Use a thread chaser, not a tap, to keep from removing metal and preserve the full thread profile, if it is still there.

FWIW, I have this https://www.toolsid.com/lang-tools/2...-mpn-2581.html

That's the same set I have.

[mcgarrett]

Originally Posted by Bruce of MN

Use a thread chaser, not a tap, to keep from removing metal and preserve the full thread profile, if it is still there.

FWIW, I have this https://www.toolsid.com/lang-tools/2...-mpn-2581.html

Bruce,
Yes, I have this set of thread chasers and will be using them - no taps.
Thanks.

[mcgarrett]

Originally Posted by Marshall V. Daut

I followed Larry's recommendations for head gasket and always used the 7013 with copper adhesive spray on both sides. I think he was recommending the 7013C gasket towards the end of his manufacturing days, as I recall. If you follow Larry's instructions on your resurfaced block and check the head to be sure it is not too far out of spec, you should be o.k. with the new studs and nuts. Just keep re-torquing the head until you are sick to death of doing it. THEN the head should be seated.
M.

Awesome information! Thanks everyone for your responses.

[Herb Concord Ca]

I have B-F 5.9 heads on both of my 2 Model A's. Good advice, on both motors I used a composite head gasket, not copper. Both have never leaked nor failed. Both were installed using new studs. One head is on it's second motor. This one I took to an automotive machine shop to be checked for flatness, he removed less than .010" to make it flat. Good Head and a good find on your part. Enjoy.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Marshall V. Daut

Of the many Brumfield heads I have owned and installed for friends/customers over the years, the only head gasket failure was my own darned fault. It was the very first Brumfield head I ever installed. My engine had been rebuilt only a couple years prior, so I didn't think I needed to install new head studs and nuts - as Larry advised to do in his installation instructions. So, I installed the new Brumfield head over my two-year old studs with the recommended head gasket. Sure enough! Even though I followed recommended heating and cooling cycle re-torquing procedures, the gasket blew out climbing a steep hill fairly soon after installation! After talking with Larry - for the first time - I changed studs and nuts and put on a new head gasket. No blowouts ever again, even with the 7:1 Super Brumfield head I later bought from Larry. I learned an expensive lesson: CHANGE THE HEAD STUDS AND NUTS!!!!
I'm sure that not all those new heads I bought were perfectly level without any warpage. The gasket compensated for some warpage and the re-torquing after heating up and cooling down compressed the gasket to conform to the head even more. Larry admitted that he stopped using a certain foundry that produced his heads for a while in Texas because the metal was not cured sufficiently. So, those heads needed to be trued. That defective batch might be where all the negative comments about Brumfield head warpage began. One bad report made public cancels out 100 positive ones. It's always the negative comments that people remember and make their way into urban legend.
Marshall

Hmmm Marshall, maybe you are taking this personal?? Installing vs. Repairing is two different things from my perspective. The things that engine rebuilders see is likely different than what those who are installers-only might encounter. As for my recollection, I cannot remember a single Brumfield head coming thru my shop that when removed after use was still true from end to end. Based on discussions regarding this, other engine rebuilders will likely share their similar experiences. Quite honestly, it is not a big deal IMHO as it is repairable when discovered, -and whether it is perceived as negative or not, shouldn't a consumer need to be made aware there is a potential to have an issue with that head??

And for what its worth, I/we have no record or method to know exactly which heads were cast at which foundry and at what timeframe. Also, it would take a metallurgist smarter than me to know the details about and the validity about the curing process, but I suspect the warpage issue had more to do with the quality of metal the foundry was using rather than lack of sufficient cure time. My reasoning for this thought comes from the castings that Ford originally used, and the lack of a lengthy timeline from casting to machining on original Model-A parts.



I will leave everyone with a thing or two to think about. Larry subscribed to the mindset that a block & head needed to have a high RA finish (-like over 100+ ) as the gasket surface needed to grip onto small serrations in the head and block. Technology back then, -and what we know now generally counters that mindset. What those serrations did aid in, is when the cylinder case (block), the cylinder head, and the head gasket are all expanding at a different rates due to being different compositions. Had the cylinder case and his cylinder head have been poured with similar composition materials, likely there would never been a need for any RA finish to have been over 40-50 and get a head gasket to seal.

[emf]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

I cannot remember a single Brumfield head coming thru my shop that when removed after use was still true from end to end.

Well, I might just have the only good Brumfield head on earth, then. My Model B engine was in my roadster when I purchased it about 5 years ago. When the Burtz engine was first advertised, I decided to buy one just to try it out. Fast forward to getting the Burtz running, I tried two different newly cast high compression heads and did not like the fit of either one, so I removed the Brumfield from the B engine to put on the Burtz. I measured the flatness of the Brumfield with a metal straight edge probably 16 different ways and could not slide a .002 feeler gauge under the straight edge anywhere on the head surface. Using a new felpro copper gasket, I bolted that baby down and never looked back. I now have close to 1000 miles on the Burtz with nary a problem. Go figure...


Frank

[mcgarrett]

emf,
I'm hoping I can join your club!!

[katy]

[QUOTE=emf;2283899] I bolted that baby down and never looked back. [QUOTE]

Did you "re-torque" the head?

[emf]

Yes, I re-torqued the head, but only once. I torque the head to 55 ft lbs the first time, then after about a week's worth of driving, I torque to 55 ft lbs again. I usually don't do it a third time. I have been involved with old cars since I was 25 and have rebuilt many engines, both Ford and non-Ford, always doing the same routine. I've never had to replace a head gasket on an engine that I've rebuilt. Maybe I'm lucky.


Frank

[Don S]

Interesting comments about Brumfield heads . I purchased a 5.9 head from Larry in 2006, including a set of bolts and nuts . I have driven over 20000 miles since then with no head issues . Larry’s installation instructions are very clear,about which gasket to use , torquing, re-torquing, etc. He okayed using white grease on both sides of the head gasket. The head has been off a couple of times for unrelated issues, I used a new fel-pro copper gasket each time, white greased them when re-installing .I tourqued to 65 lbs as recommended,I have had no gasket problems at all.Mycoupe is very happy at 55 mph,riding on 600-16 radials, Ken Parker 4speed with od transmission, and Bill Stipe Regrind touring cam. Follow all of Larry’s instructions and get out and enjoy your car as
much as possible .
Don S

[mcgarrett]

Don S,
Thanks for chiming in with your personal experience. Since my head came without installation instructions, Vince Falter has Larry's instructions on his website. I will follow them as written. I wish I knew what compression ratio I have.

[Herb Concord Ca]

Most likely you have a 5.9 to 1 head. The vast majority were 5.9 to 1.

[mcgarrett]

Herb,
Thanks for that info. Pretty sure it will be a major improvement over the stocker!

[Hitman]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Adding a couple of other things to your questions...

Using a Model-B carburetor on your engine can add some power 'if' either a modified Model-B intake manifold is used, the Model-B intake is 1.250 ID. Using a MOdel-B carb on a stock A manifold restricts the flow.

Purely a speculation however since the 'B' engine (-with its' slightly less compression than your BF and all of the other 'B' components) was rated at around 50hp.

What modification does a B manifold need when used with a B carb to produce the power benefit of the B carb/manifold combo? Seems like any modification would increase the flow and power produced beyond the factory advertised 50hp.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Hitman

What modification does a B manifold need when used with a B carb to produce the power benefit of the B carb/manifold combo? Seems like any modification would increase the flow and power produced beyond the factory advertised 50hp.

Well, the 'B' manifold does not need any modification when used with a 'B' carburetor on a 1932-34 4 cylinder engine however the issue when using the Model-B intake on a Model-A is the carburetor is aligned differently which prohibits the Model-A Choke Rod from connecting to the GAV. Additionally, the Model-A style of fuel line enters the Model-B carburetor in a different location requiring either a new line to be fabricated or an original line being modified. Therefore, to use a Model-B intake requires the carburetor mounting flange to be modified by either cutting the flange and rotating, -or elongating the carburetor mounting holes (risky).

FWIW, since the external shape of the Model-B intake manifold is different too (-making it noticeably obvious), I prefer to modify the stock Model-A manifold by boring the inside about 5% larger than a Model-B, -which is about 30% larger than a stock Model-A intake manifold.