Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Model A (1928-31)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-23-2021, 03:29 PM   #1
alexiskai
Senior Member
 
alexiskai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Mebane NC
Posts: 1,046
Default Water pump "studs"

As most of you probably know, vendors have recently started selling a set of bolts for the water pump. These replace the original stud + nut joint. The sales pitch is that, with the original studs, removing the water pump requires it to be pulled forward to clear the studs, which you can't do without loosening/removing the radiator. With the bolts, you can remove the bolts and then pull the water pump assembly to the side. The bolts sold by Mike's, Mac's, Bratton's, and Bert's look like this:
A8505KB-600x800.jpg

However, Snyder's and CW Moss have now started selling bolts that have been machined to resemble studs:
A_8501_MBM.jpg

What's funny to me is that there's no way these could pass for the original studs to the trained eye, because like all the original studs, the water pump studs aren't plated:
A_8501_MB.jpg

I suppose you could paint the tip of the fake studs with muriatic acid and strip the plating, but c'mon, no one is going to do that. What does concern me is that people will end up pulling a delayed prank on the next owner of the car, who may not know that these aren't really studs and so will end up loosening the radiator anyway. My advice: buy a bolt that looks like a bolt, or stick with the original studs.

My other advice is that if you have a four-blade fan, you probably will have to loosen the radiator anyway. The pump assembly still has to be pulled forward as you go sideways so that the impeller can clear the head, and if you have the 4-blade fan it'll hit the radiator before the impeller gets clear. Also remember that the torque value for the bolts is different from the torque used for the nuts, because you're going to a coarse thread and plated rather than plain.

Last edited by alexiskai; 02-23-2021 at 03:35 PM.
alexiskai is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2021, 05:12 PM   #2
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Senior Member
 
BRENT in 10-uh-C's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Eastern Tennessee
Posts: 9,969
Default Re: Water pump "studs"

Colin, when these first came out a decade or so ago, the general consensus was "why"?? The first part of questioning 'why' is; How often does the water pump need to be removed? I know of restored cars that have not removed the water pump in decades. For as little time as it takes to loosen two nuts on the radiator support rods, and loosen/remove the upper radiator hose, the radiator will tilt forward to give the clearance needed.

The next thought about the question 'why' is; if the cylinder head needs to come off the block (-blown head gasket, valve job, swap, etc.) then again, it really is not a big deal to loosen the radiator support rods where the hood can be removed and go straight up with the head. Remember, if the head is coming off, the upper hose is going to be removed which should allow the radiator to be tilted forward.

My point is, 'why' the need to remove the pump if the head is coming off anyway?? As you mentioned above, a 4-bladed fan ruins the need for anyway. These are something that IMO is not worth messing with on your Model-A.
__________________
.

BRENT in 10-uh-C
.
www.model-a-ford.com
...(...Finally Updated!! )

.
BRENT in 10-uh-C is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 02-23-2021, 05:53 PM   #3
JayJay
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 213
Default Re: Water pump "studs"

These bolts also seemed to me to be a solution in search of a problem. If you are mechanically inclined enough to pull the water pump you're mechanically inclined enough to deal with the hood and support rods. It ain't that complicated!

JayJay
__________________
JayJay
San Francisco Bay Area

------------------------
1930 Closed Cab Pickup
1930 Murray Town Sedan
JayJay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2021, 05:53 PM   #4
Synchro909
Senior Member
 
Synchro909's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 5,630
Default Re: Water pump "studs"

I have used those "studs" on my Model As in conjunction with repro fans. There have been a couple of occasions when I have had to replace the pump roadside. I was pleased that I had them and not the original style studs. No moving the radiator or anything. For the type of touring I do, a radiator shield is a must so moving the radiator creates another problem.
__________________
I don't always go the extra mile,
but when I do it's because I've missed my exit.
Synchro909 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2021, 09:09 PM   #5
1crosscut
Senior Member
 
1crosscut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Lincoln, Nebraska
Posts: 1,532
Default Re: Water pump "studs"

Actually Alexiskai I'm one that will remove the cadmium plating off of hardware. I do it all the time. I have a 5 gallon bucket half full of a mix of water and muratic acid just for stripping plating off of nuts, bolts and washers.
__________________
Dave / Lincoln Nebraska

It'll feel better when it quits hurting.
1crosscut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2021, 09:38 PM   #6
alexiskai
Senior Member
 
alexiskai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Mebane NC
Posts: 1,046
Default Re: Water pump "studs"

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C View Post
Colin, when these first came out a decade or so ago, the general consensus was "why"?? The first part of questioning 'why' is; How often does the water pump need to be removed? I know of restored cars that have not removed the water pump in decades. For as little time as it takes to loosen two nuts on the radiator support rods, and loosen/remove the upper radiator hose, the radiator will tilt forward to give the clearance needed.
To be clear: my original point was to advise against buying the bolts-camouflaged-as-studs, and to remind folks that the bolts only work as advertised when using the two-bladed fan. I don't have an opinion on the bolts themselves. It does seem to me that there are two potential buyers for the bolts.

One is the extended tourer, like Synchro, who is interested in anything that reduces the time to make a roadside repair. The other is what I would call the "hesitant mechanic," someone who is reluctant to make a repair any more complicated than necessary.

There are a number of reasons why someone might be a hesitant mechanic. Maybe they're just getting started and don't want to start a procedure they don't know how to finish. Maybe they don't have a lot of tools or a good place to work, maybe they don't have a lot of time.

It reminds me of this thread from six months ago, discussing options for the ignition clamp on the #8 stud. Several suggestions were put forward for altering or removing the clamp. You said something to the effect of "it's no big deal, just lower the coolant level and you can remove the nut without causing a leak." Other folks responded to the effect of "OK but maybe I don't want to drain the coolant." Same thing here some folks just don't want to loosen the radiator. I assume they have their reasons.
alexiskai is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2021, 09:39 PM   #7
alexiskai
Senior Member
 
alexiskai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Mebane NC
Posts: 1,046
Default Re: Water pump "studs"

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1crosscut View Post
Actually Alexiskai I'm one that will remove the cadmium plating off of hardware. I do it all the time. I have a 5 gallon bucket half full of a mix of water and muratic acid just for stripping plating off of nuts, bolts and washers.
Yeah but would you remove the plating from just the first 2mm of the bolt? To accurately mimic the studs you need a plated "nut" and an un-plated "stud."
alexiskai is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2021, 07:16 AM   #8
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Senior Member
 
BRENT in 10-uh-C's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Eastern Tennessee
Posts: 9,969
Default Re: Water pump "studs"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synchro909 View Post
I have used those "studs" on my Model As in conjunction with repro fans. There have been a couple of occasions when I have had to replace the pump roadside. I was pleased that I had them and not the original style studs. No moving the radiator or anything. For the type of touring I do, a radiator shield is a must so moving the radiator creates another problem.
So can you give me the reason why you would need to replace a water pump roadside??
__________________
.

BRENT in 10-uh-C
.
www.model-a-ford.com
...(...Finally Updated!! )

.
BRENT in 10-uh-C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2021, 08:02 AM   #9
MrBruce
Senior Member
 
MrBruce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 243
Default Re: Water pump "studs"

Yes Brent, I can believe someone replacing a water pump. I have been on many a tour and someone is having issues and walk up and they have replaced the coil, then the carburetor, then the distributor.... and on it goes. Instead of looking at the problem and thinking through what was causing it. Just my thoughts on experience from tours. That's why in our club we try to cover the basics in seminars. I do a distributor seminar and each person has to take the distributor out of our test engine and put theirs in and set the timing and get it running. I think in a lot of circles the club members don't know their cars.
MrBruce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2021, 08:39 AM   #10
Jack Shaft
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 1,077
Default Re: Water pump "studs"

One of the reasons Ford used studs was to keep the 'working' wear off the gray iron casting threads. In the short time I was involved with a club I was put in charge of technical, the basic lack of mechanical knowledge of a good percentage of the members was apparent. Weekend technical seminars and tours is where many of them get their cars repaired.
Jack Shaft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2021, 09:38 AM   #11
rotorwrench
Senior Member
 
rotorwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 12,390
Default Re: Water pump "studs"

Having worked in an industry that still uses studs for a lot of engine applications, I can see why some may have a need for a stud-like bolt. Stud applications were and still are used as a way of controlling the torque up of the complete fastener system. The studs were generally always installed at a tight thread fit fastener. In other words, they weren't tightened till the threads bottomed out. They were tightened for a specific torque level depending on how tight the thread fit was designed to be. Some but not all applications go into bottomless threaded bores such as water jackets and the like. This allows for a better seal in those applications and in threaded bores that do have a bottom, they were generally in high temperature applications where loosening may happen from constant expansion and contraction of the related parts. Alignment to prevent fretting is also a factor for stud use but it's not the only reason for their use.

Then a stud bore was found to no longer meet the torque up specs, oversized studs were used to restore the tension required for torque up during overhaul or repair. Due to the age of the average model A engine and its likely history of repair and overhaul, it's doubtful that all of the original stud applications will still meet the original factory specs for fit. Although a bolt is not original, it doesn't need to meet the fit up requirements that most studs would require in order to take the fastener apart without the whole stud coming out with the nut.

In the modern era, we have stud locking products that will work to hold studs in place in many cases where the stud is somewhat loose in fit. It just depends on the condition of the applicable casting. A lot of stud information has gone by the wayside over the years and .003" or larger oversized studs are no longer common.

If a person cares about originality the the studs are the only way to go. For those that are marginal on that subject, you can use a bolt or one of these faux studs instead.
rotorwrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2021, 12:05 PM   #12
alexiskai
Senior Member
 
alexiskai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Mebane NC
Posts: 1,046
Default Re: Water pump "studs"

Quote:
Originally Posted by rotorwrench View Post
In the modern era, we have stud locking products that will work to hold studs in place in many cases where the stud is somewhat loose in fit. It just depends on the condition of the applicable casting. A lot of stud information has gone by the wayside over the years and .003" or larger oversized studs are no longer common.

If a person cares about originality the the studs are the only way to go. For those that are marginal on that subject, you can use a bolt or one of these faux studs instead.
I think I would be more pro-stud in this application if this were an area where torque was critical, like the head gasket or manifold gasket. But you really don't need a high clamp load to seal this joint. If anything you're at greater risk of over-torquing due to the age of the internal threads and people wanting to put lube/sealant on the bolt threads.
alexiskai is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2021, 12:27 PM   #13
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Senior Member
 
BRENT in 10-uh-C's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Eastern Tennessee
Posts: 9,969
Default Re: Water pump "studs"

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBruce View Post
Yes Brent, I can believe someone replacing a water pump. I have been on many a tour and someone is having issues and walk up and they have replaced the coil, then the carburetor, then the distributor.... and on it goes. Instead of looking at the problem and thinking through what was causing it. Just my thoughts on experience from tours. That's why in our club we try to cover the basics in seminars. I do a distributor seminar and each person has to take the distributor out of our test engine and put theirs in and set the timing and get it running. I think in a lot of circles the club members don't know their cars.
Likely a very accurate statement.

I guess for me personally, I have been on Model-A tours for better than 50 years now, and I honestly cannot think of a situation that has ever arisen where the water pump needed to be replaced on the side of the road and having these bolts that look like studs would have been a requirement or even a God-send.

As I continue to shake my head, just think about this, -even a broken water pump impeller shaft (-however that might happen! ) would be an easy fix by removing the belt and driving the Model-A on down the road with a broken shaft. The truth of this scenario is if someone has the forethought to replace the pump studs with these fasteners, they likely installed a new water pump, -or at least the impeller shaft during the restoration. If an original two-blade fan broke an ear, ...again, no need to remove the pump on the side of the road. Just break the other blade off and drive on. If the housing casting broke, to me it seems plausible the fan would damage the radiator.
__________________
.

BRENT in 10-uh-C
.
www.model-a-ford.com
...(...Finally Updated!! )

.
BRENT in 10-uh-C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2021, 12:32 PM   #14
CarlG
Senior Member
 
CarlG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 8,749
Default Re: Water pump "studs"

Not being all too concerned with originality I use the black round head bolts just like the rest of the engine. I coat them with a thread sealant due to the fact that one of them is a thru hold into the water jacket. No one has ever even noticed that mine are "different" or not original.
__________________
Alaskan A's
Antique Auto Mushers of Alaska
Model A Ford Club of America
Model A Restorers Club
Antique Automobile Club of America
Mullins Owner's Club
CarlG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2021, 12:53 PM   #15
Y-Blockhead
Senior Member
 
Y-Blockhead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Redondo Beach, CA
Posts: 4,497
Default Re: Water pump "studs"

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlG View Post
No one has ever even noticed that mine are "different" or not original.
That's what I'm talking about!! I can't even remember the last time someone "inspected" my water pump bolt/studs.



As for Synchro909 replacing a water pump on the side of the road I see it as plausible with the length of tours he does. My longest tour would be equal to a trip around the block to him.
__________________
Y-Blockhead
'30 Briggs Town Sedan
'55 Ford Ranchwagon
_________________________________
And once again that is just my 1 worth.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51ufACHJMfU

Last edited by Y-Blockhead; 02-24-2021 at 01:16 PM.
Y-Blockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2021, 02:20 PM   #16
Chuck Sea/Tac
Senior Member
 
Chuck Sea/Tac's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Between Seattle & Tacoma
Posts: 2,071
Default Re: Water pump "studs"

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C View Post
So can you give me the reason why you would need to replace a water pump roadside??
Two years ago, on a tour coming down from the mountain in pouring rain, one of our group in the first five cars was on the side the road. 30 miles later I pull into the hotel and he comes in within a couple of minutes.His brand new water pump had just failed from a bad bearing as I recall. Anyway he had those fake studs, and he changed it within a few minutes, along with the new belt, because of the seized pump.
Chuck Sea/Tac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2021, 04:04 PM   #17
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Senior Member
 
BRENT in 10-uh-C's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Eastern Tennessee
Posts: 9,969
Default Re: Water pump "studs"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Sea/Tac View Post
Two years ago, on a tour coming down from the mountain in pouring rain, one of our group in the first five cars was on the side the road. 30 miles later I pull into the hotel and he comes in within a couple of minutes.His brand new water pump had just failed from a bad bearing as I recall. Anyway he had those fake studs, and he changed it within a few minutes, along with the new belt, because of the seized pump.

Chuck, my initial thought with that scenario is, ...how often do we find ourselves replacing water pumps on the side of the road?

Second, I realize you said a few minutes, but lets just bump that up to 5 minutes. I am guessing loosening one of the upper radiator hose clamps, and loosening two of the Hood Support Rod nuts would allow those to bump up out of the radiator support rod bracket. At that point, the radiator would/could have tilted forward, and with the fan tips located at the 3:00 & 9:00 position, the pump would have come off with clearance.

I guess it boils down to, it's your car so you can do as you wish.
__________________
.

BRENT in 10-uh-C
.
www.model-a-ford.com
...(...Finally Updated!! )

.
BRENT in 10-uh-C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2021, 04:23 PM   #18
jw hash
Senior Member
 
jw hash's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Auburn Washington
Posts: 2,321
Default Re: Water pump "studs"

I was that member Chuck talked about. I changed the pump out in around ten minutes in the pouring rain. also a few tours before that one of our member lost a fan blade. he was lucky that it missed the radiator and hit the hood. we had a trailer fallowing the group. it did not have the fake studs so we fixed at the Motel and it took awhile to fix it. I always carry and spare water pump and fan along with other parts with me on tour. I install the fake studs in all Model A`s I put together for touring.

Brent, I did not have to undo the hose or the hood just the pump.
jw hash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2021, 04:47 PM   #19
Synchro909
Senior Member
 
Synchro909's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 5,630
Default Re: Water pump "studs"

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C View Post
So can you give me the reason why you would need to replace a water pump roadside??
I have had to do it twice. Once was a failed bearing. I used one of those over the counter "leakless" pumps and a ball bearing gave up at a bad moment (is there a good one?) I have since given up on those pumps and now make my own with a ceramic seal. For the other, I don't recall the reason which might sound strange to many but with the bolts, it was a nothing job so not significant - no more than putting air in the tyres!
__________________
I don't always go the extra mile,
but when I do it's because I've missed my exit.
Synchro909 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2021, 04:58 PM   #20
alexiskai
Senior Member
 
alexiskai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Mebane NC
Posts: 1,046
Default Re: Water pump "studs"

I feel like we're basically in agreement that:
  • The replacement bolts for the water pump do little if any harm
  • They confer some degree of convenience
  • The actual value, in terms of time/effort savings, you get out of them will depend a lot on your circumstances

If you have a 2-blade fan, and a spare water pump ready to go, you might save a lot of hassle. If not, probably not much real advantage.
alexiskai is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:18 PM.