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Old 12-20-2021, 11:59 PM   #1
Model A Ron
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Default Victoria Roof Dent

I had a dent in the roof of my Victoria that happened when it was being saved up in Long Island. I was able to make some formed boards and was able to pound it out but I wanted your thought on doing more work on it or just skim coat it with filler. It turned out better than I was thinking it would but I am sure some of you may have tips and tricks for things like this.
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Old 12-21-2021, 12:04 AM   #2
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Default Re: Victoria Roof Dent

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Old 12-21-2021, 01:27 AM   #3
J Franklin
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Default Re: Victoria Roof Dent

Show-off, if you do more I think they call it metal finishing. A friend dumped his Harley and had the oil tank reworked to a point you couldn't tell in the chrome plating that was done on it. No filler in that job. Modern fillers applied properly are no problem.
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Old 12-21-2021, 01:44 AM   #4
Model A Ron
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Default Re: Victoria Roof Dent

Quote:
Originally Posted by J Franklin View Post
Show-off, if you do more I think they call it metal finishing. A friend dumped his Harley and had the oil tank reworked to a point you couldn't tell in the chrome plating that was done on it. No filler in that job. Modern fillers applied properly are no problem.
I take that as a complement. I did put in a lot of tap tap taps in it but it is my first attempt to pop out a dent. The thick metal had a lot memory in it.
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Old 12-21-2021, 05:10 AM   #5
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Default Re: Victoria Roof Dent

I watched a video yesterday of a planishing hammer being used and he mentioned roofs. He did a sample on some welded seams he had repaired and of the type he usually does you couldn't tell there was a weld there just by using the hammer. No idea if it can be used on a roof already installed or not.


https://youtu.be/t5LY4UQGx_4 Here's a link to the video and I'm sure there are better more in depth videos, this one just popped up in recommended.
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Old 12-21-2021, 06:39 AM   #6
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Default Re: Victoria Roof Dent

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Smooth it with filler if the max thickness of filler is 3/16 or less. Otherwise, you need to do more metal work. Keep us posted as you progress with the restoration of your 190A. Does it have a Murray body number tag on it's firewall? Have you joined the International Victoria Association?
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Old 12-21-2021, 07:17 AM   #7
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Default Re: Victoria Roof Dent

What Bob said. You made it a lot better, congratulations to you. Roofs are one of the hardest things to do dolly work on.
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Old 12-21-2021, 08:24 AM   #8
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Default Re: Victoria Roof Dent

Dents with little or no crease can be bumped and slapped back to contour. If a person starts with some pin point heat in just the right spots, the small amount of stretch would come right out Planishing would stretch it further but bumping and slapping would minimize that and the cherry red red shrink would help gather the stretch back where it belongs.

From the looks of it now, it may be pretty close but a body file would tell a person pretty quick if there are still low spots. A person would have to push from the backside and bump or slap from the topside to do more. I would try for less than 1/16" of skim if filler is to be used. I don't like to use much filler. The more that's on there the easier it spider webs or comes loose.
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Old 12-21-2021, 12:16 PM   #9
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Default Re: Victoria Roof Dent

Quote:
Originally Posted by rotorwrench View Post
If a person starts with some pin point heat in just the right spots, the small amount of stretch would come right out Planishing would stretch it further but bumping and slapping would minimize that and the cherry red red shrink would help gather the stretch back where it belongs.

I would try for less than 1/16" of skim if filler is to be used. I don't like to use much filler. The more that's on there the easier it spider webs or comes loose.
I did use heat but I did not get anything cherry red so I think I will try that on the low spots. When I put a straight edge on it I do see spots that are a little over 1/16 deep but they are very small in size. You can see what I am talking about in the attached photo. The overall shape came back very nice in my opinion.
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Old 12-21-2021, 04:46 PM   #10
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Default Re: Victoria Roof Dent

Bob…
3/16” is about 3x too much filler!
I’m trying now to use the shrinking disc and that helps minimize filler. Was shrinking with heat and a stinger
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Old 12-21-2021, 07:37 PM   #11
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Default Re: Victoria Roof Dent

I took 3 semesters on auto body and paint at a local college and they taught us to use a maximum of 1/16 inch body filler.
They said shrinking metal is an art and if done wrong you'll ruin the panel. Also, use a 180 sanding disc on a DA or drill, or 120 grit sandpaper on a 12inch block of wood to bring out the highs and lows. Sand across the dent and at a 45 degree angle, not with it. You're very close to being done with the "bumping". It's looking very good. LRF
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Old 12-22-2021, 11:17 AM   #12
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Default Re: Victoria Roof Dent

After studying metal shaping for a while, I realized that it's easy to work in problems that are difficult to work back out. To ruin a panel is to make it worse than what was started with to the point of no recovery so I avoid that train of thought as long as the metal is still intact and has some thickness left to it. If it does, then it can still be corrected but knowing the way to go about it requires the knowledge of how to proceed. Folks on the Metal Meet ask questions about their problem and generally will get a good answer as long as the photos are good enough to form an opinion. It really is a learning process and is basic metallurgy of any particular shapeable type of sheet metal since the different types differ in procedures as well.

Basic auto body training is about the way to repair something in the most expedient manor. Time is money in the auto body business so it matters for that. If time is no object then just about anything can be accomplished. If a person has to pay for it then they will want the most expedient method as a general rule.

Shrinking is all about gathering thickness back into an era there it has been stretched. The application of heat will only go so far. A person has to apply heat to the thin spot and work the surrounding metal back into it very carefully. The hot spot allows it to gather there but it has to remain hot during the process so this is a forging process of sorts that has to be worked quickly and skillfully. Hammer on dolly only thins the metal further. A person has to have good access to the metal on both sides to do the best job of it.

A shrinking disk is a very good tool to use once the area is very close to being smoothed back out to proper contour. It only heats and works the high spots on the side being worked. A person can do this with a slapper but it will take longer that way. Any and all tools that speed up the process are good tools to have.

Last edited by rotorwrench; 12-22-2021 at 11:36 AM.
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Old 12-22-2021, 04:55 PM   #13
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Default Re: Victoria Roof Dent

Wray Schelein videos highly recommended
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Old 12-23-2021, 07:34 AM   #14
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Default Re: Victoria Roof Dent

The fastest way to ruin a curved panel is to use heat.

I say this because you have to have a good understanding of metal and where it is stretched and where it is shrunk. The problem is the types of damage you have was all shrinks with a small amount of stretch. So almost no shrinking should have been done.

For your case you should not need any filler when done. Just a few coats of a thicker primer and level.

I would have worked the metal out by hammer and dolly until close then started working a shrinking disk and picking higher until level. It takes a while to get just right.

With time and a shrinking disk you can make metal back to perfect.

What was a game changer for my metal working was watching 'Shrinking Magic', I still have it on VHS which I would sell to someone but you can buy it on DVD today. From there I learned about how to move the metal.

Some examples that help visualize what happens.

First take a sheet of paper and tear it about an inch on the side. Then ever so slightly overlap the tear. You will find the paper gets a bump. How do you fix the bump? Well you could shink it, but then the metal next to that will bump out till eventually the metal is shorter across the paper. But the real repair was just stretching the side.

Take a soda and put a crease in the side. That side is now shorter. You fix it by massaging out the pointing corners evenly. It comes out and is still shorter because the metal is still creased.
This by the way is what you had in the panel of the victoria.
So the fix is not to shrink at this point. You need to level the metal without causing shrinks. So this offsets the very minor stretching that might have happened.

In the end it is a very complex set of shrinkage with a bit of stretching. You would be left with some small stretch spots. The problem is the heat causes shrinking over a very wide area. You want to shrink maybe only 1/8" of metal but the torch does 3/4" or larger. So now you are over shrunk on a curve, very very bad!!!
A shrinking disk is like taking your knuckles and rubbing them on a carpet. Only the tops get burnt. If you flatten your and rub and nothing gets hot enough to burn.

So with a shrinking disk you work just the high spots flat. Then find the low spots and pick them a bit high and disk them.

In the case of your car. You can take a file and find the high spots with a quick run over the metal. Once you stop finding high spots the metal is likely so close it will level with just a couple of layers of a mild build of primer.

Hope that helps people understand. There is so much wrong info on body work out there. I did all those bad things until I learned how to properly move metal. Then I learned most of the info out there is seriously flawed. Great results are not that hard to get once you learn the basics. I ended up having my can of filler go bad because I stopped using it. I bought some thinner filler to handle the minor stuff from more complex repairs that cant be worked easy. Even that went bad because I used so little.
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Old 12-23-2021, 08:15 AM   #15
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Default Re: Victoria Roof Dent

Some of the hardest I’ve run into involves someone on it before me.
I just had a place on a 68C where someone took the pick end of a hammer to it.
Ive got it back pretty well but still dealing with the myriad of little pick marks.
Sometimes I walk away to fight another day.
Intend to get the shrink disc gentle back at it.
Untouched damage is 99 out of a 100 easier than Bob Beatthehell to be there before you!
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Old 12-23-2021, 10:35 AM   #16
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Default Re: Victoria Roof Dent

I agree with a good portion of above comments. Pointed hammers have there place but not for shrinking and shrinking hammers really have no place in bodywork in my opinion.

A lot of the best work is done gently with a lot of soft blow work instead of hard blows. Pushing and rubbing can do more than most folks know. This is where the disk works but it certainly isn't magic. I generally only use heat on deep and creased dents where you can see the stretch marks. The disk only applies moderate heat so it's good for the spots that are near level but not quite there yet. It's a lot like burnishing. A tool that I've thought about but never acted on is a powered burnishing roller. I think it would help in places that the disk might not. It would be easier to burnish with a roller. I'll likely never try it though. I just use a nice big flat slapper and lightly work it. Sometimes I just push it across the surface I want to move.

Last edited by rotorwrench; 12-23-2021 at 10:45 AM.
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Old 12-23-2021, 02:57 PM   #17
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Default Re: Victoria Roof Dent

Referring back to my auto body classes, the instructor recommended a book; "The Key to Metal Bumping" by Frank T. Sargent and put out by Martin Tool & Forge (body & fender repair tools). Excellent book explaining the physical properties of dents and CORRECT repair proceedures. It's loaded with pictures and suggestions, makes you want to get a "junk" fender to prove you can save it. Bought on Amazon or Ebay. Drive your "A". LRF
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Old 12-24-2021, 12:16 AM   #18
Model A Ron
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Default Re: Victoria Roof Dent

I played around with it a bit and adding heat actually helped quite bit to have some of the low spots come up. It's not 100% but it will be no more than 1/16 of filler at this point so I am calling it good. I have never tried pulling out a dent in the past and to be honest I could not be happier with the results.

The question now is should I use modern filler or try my hand at leading it in? I like the idea of doing it the old fashioned way.
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Old 12-24-2021, 04:58 AM   #19
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Default Re: Victoria Roof Dent

Forget lead
The tinning uses solder and acid which will blister in a few years. I did lead years ago and still have body solder but new is better
Use plastic
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Old 12-24-2021, 06:03 AM   #20
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Default Re: Victoria Roof Dent

Lead can be problematic. Go for some lightweight body filler like evercoat rage gold.
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