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Old 07-17-2020, 07:35 PM   #21
Mercmarc
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Smile Re: Camshaft Movement

Hello Fordestes,

I checked for gear markings and they are on the same side facing forward. Yes the crank gear does have about an 1/8 inch offset to the rear.

I will definitely keep the post in the loop.

Rescpecfully

Marc
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Old 07-17-2020, 07:58 PM   #22
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Default Re: Camshaft Movement

What oil pump are you using and are you running a stock fuel pump?
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Old 07-17-2020, 09:15 PM   #23
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Default Re: Camshaft Movement

Hello Flatjack9,

I have 65 psi OP at cold idle (600RPM) and 50 psi OP at 180 degrees idle. I believe I see upwards of 75 at 2000 RPM at 180 degrees. Full flow and pressure fire wall mounted oil filter.

I don't see the photos I attached earlier so I will try this again. Please forgive me if they are duplicates.
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Old 07-17-2020, 09:16 PM   #24
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Default Re: Camshaft Movement

Hello flatjack 9

Yes a stock fuel pump
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Old 07-17-2020, 09:20 PM   #25
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Smile Re: Camshaft Movement

Hello flapjack 9

Just a view of the fuel pump
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Old 07-18-2020, 09:51 AM   #26
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Default Re: Camshaft Movement

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Quote:
Originally Posted by GOSFAST View Post
This is easily controlled, we just delivered 2 builds with the "fix", worked like charm!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Here's a shot of an easy way to avoid the cam or gear from making contact with the cover! That is a Comp Cams (SBC) nylon "button" with the end play checked and adjusted as needed!
Looks like that solution will plug the oilhole coming out of the cam lubricating the drivegears...or am i missing some solution to that ?

Hello Flatheadmurre, I looked closely at and around the distributor drive gear and do not see an oil hole out the end of the cam or anywhere around the area. Oil diagrams indicate the cam and crank gear receive their oil from the front cam bearing. I noticed the only lube on the end of the distributor when I removed it for this inspection was the grease that I put on the teeth. Makes me even more concerned about correct mix and match of parts.

Thank you

Marc
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Old 07-18-2020, 10:16 AM   #27
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Default Re: Camshaft Movement

There are 2 typed of early cam Blanks. One has a flush mount cam drive, the other with an extendes cam drive. IF an adapter was used on the latter cam it would bove the cam out aprox 1/6 inch, unless the back side was relieved. I ran into this problem many years ago. However, the engine wouldn't turn over when I bolted on the cover. I could see the gear was forward and discovered the mistake. Making mistakes, makes you very smart.????
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Old 07-18-2020, 10:27 AM   #28
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Default Re: Camshaft Movement

Good morning Ol'Ron,
Thank you for the information, I am removing the drive gear today to see what I find behind it. I am trying to be respectful of the builder (still waiting for a reply) and don't wasn't to investigate anymore than what is needed to very a problem which we have done. I am most curious regarding what the actual problem is and everyone here on Ford Barn has been most helpful with that. I will keep the updates coming until a conclusion is reached.

Sincerely

Marc
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Old 07-18-2020, 10:54 AM   #29
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Default Re: Camshaft Movement

Quote:
Originally Posted by flatheadmurre View Post
Looks like that solution will plug the oilhole coming out of the cam lubricating the drivegears...or am i missing some solution to that ?
Let me clear up a bit why we place that button in there. It isn't meant to ride on the front of the cam, it's meant to keep any metal from contaminating the build in the event of what happened to Marc here. It would be hard to have the cam gear or cam run into the cover while that nylon button is in there. The button will stop the cam/gear from moving into the cover!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Not sure still what Marc's problem is here but I was hoping to find out if his adjustable lifters had "flat-faced" adjusting screws where the valve tip resides?? The screw heads are designed to have a very slight radius, just like the face of the lifters where they ride on the lobes!
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Old 07-18-2020, 11:35 AM   #30
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Default Re: Camshaft Movement

Hello GOFAST,

I Greatlyappreciate the clarification of the button application. Maes perfect sense to me. It appears that the builder used a bit of mix and match parts without confirming usable application, either by 1st hand experience or some other history. Yes, two engines with the same problem, I need to know what and why and how not to if I go to build one my self instead of a third engine.

As for the lifters, I do not have any pictures of the second engines valve train to very flat or crowned adjusting stems. I have pictures of the first engine with had crowned or domed non adjustable lifters, but that engine had the same problem looking back at the history of aluminum material in the oil from an unknown source. Well it had the same distributor clicking noise and an aluminum timing gear. I did not take that engine apart to confirm a source of the noise or metal when the builder said bring it back and I will build you another new one, no questions asked. I believe what we have discovered is the same set of mix and match conditions leading to the same result, now that we know what the source of the noise is. Unfortunately there is a significant amount of ground up metal that has been run through the engine that may or may not have been filtered out by the oil filter. I won't know until I hear from the builder as to what direction he wants me to go.

Respectfully

Marc
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Old 07-18-2020, 11:37 AM   #31
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Default Re: Camshaft Movement

I should proof read better before hitting replay


Reply. :-)
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Old 07-18-2020, 11:46 AM   #32
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Default Re: Camshaft Movement

Oh Boy!


Do I know about the SBC cam button. I built a small block many years ago when I worked at a Shell station. The noise drove me nuts (without the button). I didn't know whether it was a bearing or what. Wood stick stethoscope didn't find it. My boss, the other mechanic in our station and the other knowledgeable mechanics in town didn't have a clue.


I figured I'd have to pull the motor. My boss said, run it till it gets worse. I was changing the timing cover to a two-piece design to fix a small oil leak. pushed on the end of the cam and alas there was the noise!!


Glenn



Quote:
Originally Posted by GOSFAST View Post
This is easily controlled, we just delivered 2 builds with the "fix", worked like charm!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Here's a shot of an easy way to avoid the cam or gear from making contact with the cover! That is a Comp Cams (SBC) nylon "button" with the end play checked and adjusted as needed!
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Old 07-18-2020, 01:45 PM   #33
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Default Re: Camshaft Movement

Hello glennpm

Many thanks for sharing, was there any chain rubbing contact with the original sheet metal timing case cover? Or was there some other guteral noise since the cam was moving?

Respectfully

Marc
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Old 07-18-2020, 03:02 PM   #34
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Default Re: Camshaft Movement

Okay this was a long time ago but I can't forget the noise it made. It was a hollow knock that you could hear intermittently. The kind of noise when you suck your tongue of the roof of your mouth ;-) You would hear it during RPM reduction. I guess a little chain slack that let the cam pulley walk to and knock on the block and make a cluck/knock noise.

I don't remember see any chain scraping or tapping evidence in the front inside of the timing cover case. Definitely no scraping noise from the chain.

Glenn

Last edited by glennpm; 07-18-2020 at 04:12 PM.
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Old 07-18-2020, 03:57 PM   #35
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Default Re: Camshaft Movement

Chain?
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Old 07-18-2020, 04:03 PM   #36
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Default Re: Camshaft Movement

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Originally Posted by flatjack9 View Post
Chain?
They're talking SBC and cam walk.
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Old 07-18-2020, 07:33 PM   #37
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Default Re: Camshaft Movement

Thank you glennpm, amazing how some sounds just stay in the memory banks.

:-)
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Old 07-18-2020, 07:40 PM   #38
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Default Re: Camshaft Movement

Hello gosfast,

Regarding the lifters in the second engine, below is the most accurate information I could find.

I looked up the Reds Heads Lincoln Zepher style adjustable lifters that I understood were installed in the second engine. Looking closely at the pictures of said lifters, they appear to be ground flat across the adjusting nut area where the valve stem makes contact.

The first engine's non adjustable lifters are very clear domed or crowned.

Thanks again for everyones input and help. Still waiting to hear from the builder.

Respectfully

Marc
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Old 07-18-2020, 08:03 PM   #39
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Default Re: Camshaft Movement

Another thing to consider is if they are using an early cam (with an adapter for the distributor drive bolted onto it - which is what I see), then they probably do NOT have the oiling provision that Ford added to pass oil from the front cam journal to the front of the snout of the cam. This did not exist from 32 - 48 and it is very important when running the later timing gears and the side-mount distributor timing cover.

Unless they drilled the cam journal and center drilled the cam shout (highly unlikely), then this is most likely your problem. Without pressurized oil to this front thrust surface, you have direct metal on metal contact - so you'll soon have the very issue you speak of. This is also the reason that Ford switched the timing gear teeth angle - they wanted the cam to touch the front cover and ride against it. This is a mistake on the builder's part . . . plain and simple.

Why - Thrust Direction Change: 1) It helps keep the distributor timing more consistent (cam touching the front all the time) - as when you allow the cam to walk, the timing advance will move as you let on-off the throttle (only takes a little movement to cause over 5 degrees of timing fluctuation. I prefer to setup the backlash/thrust to be as tight as possible - like .003-.004 - to limit any timing movements.

Fix: Outside the potential issue of the bolts hitting the cover, if you want to continue to run the early cam, then it needs to be correctly drilled and the front adapter needs to have a hole all the way through it (if it does not). Also, the forward thrust dimension needs to be as close to .004 as possible (with the gasket in). Beware, sometimes the wrong gasket thicknesses are used. Depending on the thrust, sometimes I remove the gasket and use RTV. Also, I've had to "tune" the flange thickness on certain cams before. Many ways to skin the cat - but the thrust dimension is important.

Note: The aluminum cover is a bit more forgiving (as it relates to the amount of oil) - but it should not be an issue either way (with correct oiling).

Here is the oiling hole on a 49-53 cam:

49-53Oiling.jpg
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Old 07-18-2020, 08:16 PM   #40
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Default Re: Camshaft Movement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercmarc View Post
Hello Flatjack9,

I have 65 psi OP at cold idle (600RPM) and 50 psi OP at 180 degrees idle. I believe I see upwards of 75 at 2000 RPM at 180 degrees. Full flow and pressure fire wall mounted oil filter.

I don't see the photos I attached earlier so I will try this again. Please forgive me if they are duplicates.
Just because you have an external oil filter, does not mean that it is 100% filtering the oil. Even if it is a modern-full-flow type system, it is doubtful that the oil pump was specifically modified for full-flow (which means a special TOP on it and oil lines that exit the side of the pan).

Most builders do a partial flow setup - where the rear main of the engine is still getting unfiltered oil. The term "95%" filtration is a common term used for this . . . but that is creative math in my mind . . . we have 3 mains in a flathead, two of which will get filtered oil (so not counting the cam bearings), I consider these partial full-flow mods to be a 66% filtration . . . not 95%.

Why is this important, well if you have metal running through the engine, you probably ran some through at least the rear main bearing and the rear cam bearing . . . and that is not a good situation.
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