8BA Piston Removal...Success!!!

[Fortunateson]

To make a short story long I had a good turning 8BA. Removed the heads and plugs to check ridge at top of bore. Not too bad so I put the heads back on but didn't put the plugs in for some reason. I also didn't know I had a small leak in the roof. Up here where rain was invented some got into the driver's side piston bores. I have had ATF/acetone sitting in them for quite awhile and nothing is moving. It doesn't look like any rain water got into the valley but perhaps into the valves.

So I thought I'd just remove the pistons. I was planning on removing the timing chain, main bearing caps, con rod caps, and then remove crank. After that gently tapping on the pistons either from top to bottom or vice versa.

What say you all, can I do it this way? I'm really hoping for a quick honing to cure any ills but I know it may need to be re-bored with oversize pistons...

[Mart]

No timing chain, just gears.

I had a french motor that was lightly seized on one cylinder. I pulled both heads and the oil pan. I was able to identify which cylinder was sticking by moving the crank back and forth and feeling for movement on the pistons. I loosened the big end on the rod on the stuck piston and was able to rotate the crank away from it, just a bit. I was then able to knock the piston down because it now had somewhere to go, and was able to move on it's own.
I kept moving the crank away and knocking the piston and rod down to meet it. With plenty of lube applied I was then able to rotate it and push that piston up.

What I'm saying is that you have a better chance of moving a piston if it can be moved in isolation rather than trying to move the crank and all the other pistons at the same time.

It isn't actually easy to take out the crank if you can't rotate it. Some of the nuts are hard to get to.

Mart.

[Fortunateson]

Thanks Mart. I know what you mean about it being difficult removing a crank if all the pistons are stuck and the crank can't rotate... I watched a very educational video by some bloke in Solihull, England. Actually he's been doing a whole series on rebuilding a crusty old flathead, even did his own boring, sleeving, and valve job! Highly recommended! LOL

Thanks for the advice....

[Fortunateson]

Well Mart, and any other readers, I tackled the pistons today. I checked the dipstick again and as I remembered the pan was dry. Since my engine stand was tied up with a Y-block I decided to tip the engine on its front. First my brother and I removed the timing cover and the bellhousing and the starter. I had previously removed the water pumps. Up she goes and out comes an oil field! Support the block and run for my oil absorbent. Clean up most of the mess. We then removed the oil pan and the stubborn oil pump.mm I'm going to double check the length of at dipstick!

We went after the the piston #5 first and it was frozen good and tight. We then decided to remove the easiest ones they came out fairly easily, even one of the frozen ones I would hammer down on the con rod bolts with a brass drift. The last little bit I used the con rod cap as a guide for the drift. When we were down to the last three pistons, two of which were frozen, we could not access the little retaining tabs for the nuts. BUGGER! Then my brother suggested that we try and pry the crank over a bit. Well that was enough to gain clearance to bend the tabs and we they used a "bit of stick" to convince the two frozen pistons "begone serpent" and the last non frozen piston came out easily.

We spun the crank and t my delight none of the valves were stuck! I was hoping they weren't all this time.We then removed the crank and set it up on its end securely.

Most of the con rod bearings look pretty good as well as the main bearings. The crank may just polish up and the bores that had the frozen pistons may just need honing. I'll take everything into a old time and well respected engine rebuilder for this thoughts.

I'll measure the bore diameter to see if this engine was ever bored out, it may not have been. There is only a very slight ridge at the top of the bores and the previous owner said it was removed in the early fifties from the original car, an early fifties vehichle, to put in a newer v8. No visible cracks anywhere either!

And though your recent experiences were much more difficult than mine your videos helped a lot and gave me a little more courage. However, in solidarity with you the engine gods had one of the oil pan bolts break off. Plenty left to try vise grips but I leaning towards having my son tig a nut onto it to take if out with a wrench.

[Fortunateson]

Going to try a little cylinder honing this evening. I'll also check dimensions to see if it has ever been "reborn" / re-bored and if it needs to be now. Maybe a simple overhaul may be in order...

[V8COOPMAN]

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Originally Posted by Fortunateson

Thanks Mart. I know what you mean about it being difficult removing a crank if all the pistons are stuck and the crank can't rotate... I watched a very educational video by some bloke in Solihull, England. Actually he's been doing a whole series on rebuilding a crusty old flathead, even did his own boring, sleeping, and valve job! Highly recommended! LOL

Thanks for the advice....

You do realize that Mart is the bloke in Solihull, England that did the videos you speak of, right? DD

[VeryTangled]

Ya gotta admit, they are REALLY GOOD videos.

[Tinker]

like the videos. Making some progress Fortunateson, look forward to updates... As Mart said there is never been a timing chain on a flathead. Ever.

[Fortunateson]

Of course I knew
Mart made those excellent videos, I was pulling his leg...

Regarding the “timing chain” thing I knew that but had some dietary turbulence which originated in my brain!

LOL

[Fortunateson]

Some pics...

[Fortunateson]

Some more...

[Fortunateson]

Not quite done and I have to get the telescoping gauges to measure bore to determine if has been bored out before. Maybe just a good overhaul is in order...

[Tinker]

they really don't look that bad really. If there is not a heavy ridge that you can physical feel with a finger nail in the cylinder. Hone and re-ring might do it. Or not depending on what you want. A full rebuild is always preferred for most.

Big fan of yblocks, heavy blocks with some great torque.

telescoping gauge, caliper.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qy3PzrxX4o






.

[Fortunateson]

I may do a full rebuild but I always find it cool when a "will it run" scenario comes true, within reason of course. I realized that I don't have a bore Guage but rather a telescoping Guage set. So my son measured each cylinder twice, 90* to each other, and we have a range of 3.190-3.192. Now I believe stock is 3.1875 so these bores are roughly .0025-.0045 oversize. What do you all think about that. Re-bore or could I get away with an overhaul? I'm looking for a cruiser with a mild cam.

[Tinker]

What do you all think about that... Hog it out. You know what you want. stop asking. Seriously do what you want and post.


If you can afford a short block rebuild do that. If not... well if long block...do that


If you are looking to replace the cam, you should line bore on a old engine, pull the engine and do a mild rebuild. Find a good shop.


respectfully, this is not a small block chevy made in 2005. Cam bearings will need attention on a flathead swap.





.

[Fortunateson]

Cost really isn't the problem at all. I'm not the kind of guy that likes to "fix" things that already working. My Y block just took a .020 cleanup bore nothing outrageous since I just want a reliable cruiser. Same for this flatty. I still have to have a proper cylinder measurement done and determine bore taper. But I still want to know the upper limit for bore wear which I can't seem to find. New main, Rod, and cam bearings regardless of anything else. Even the cam needs a good look to see if it is stock or not. If it is stock I may purchase a new one or have the original reground at an old time cam grinding establishment locally.

[cadillac512]

I have always considered taper of .007" to be the upper limit of a re-ring job. I've done MANY engines for customers who didn't need or want a complete rebuild and never had any trouble. I've also re-ringed a few that were worn far more than that and had acceptable results as well, but the .007" figure always works for me. Cast iron rings or moly...your choice.



Terry

[tubman]

I agree with the above. When we were kids, a little "piston slap" was an acceptable component of one of our rebuilds. If we did use different pistons, they came from the "piston pile" at the junkyard, not the parts store. My dad had been a mechanic and had a set of micrometers, so I was a hot shot in our neighborhood. I shudder to think of some of the work we did, but we kept 'em on the road. If someone did a particularly bad job and took out a block, crank, or a couple of rods, replacements were cheap and only 15 minutes away. With the availability of major components today as it is (excluding 3 3/4" cranks), you really should be a little more careful than we were.

[Fortunateson]

Cadillac512 and Tubman,

Thanks for the comments. I re-did the math to get a preliminary wear of between .0025-.0045 in the bores. Still need official measurements especially taper. But if I'm at the wear indicated a re-ring would be fine? Not trying to build or drive crazy but it will get what it needs. Price isn't the issue but what does it need....

[tubman]

Back in the day, they sold "oversize rings" for situations just such as yours. I think they still do today, but call 'em "file to fit" to escape liability. I would check for excessive taper.

[cadillac512]

Originally Posted by Fortunateson

Cadillac512 and Tubman,

Thanks for the comments. I re-did the math to get a preliminary wear of between .0025-.0045 in the bores. Still need official measurements especially taper. But if I'm at the wear indicated a re-ring would be fine? Not trying to build or drive crazy but it will get what it needs. Price isn't the issue but what does it need....

I just finished a 260" Merc (4" stroke/.030" over bores) for my '41 Merc. The block had been bored in the past and was worn .003"-.004" at the tops of the cylinders but pistons were fine. I reamed the ridge at the bore tops and honed lightly to break the glaze. Put it back together with a set of Hastings cast rings,leaving the bottom oil ring off the 4 ring pistons. I have 1500 miles on it in the last couple months and it runs great and uses no oil. No piston noise either.

I completely disassembled the engine and cleaned it ( hot tanked and crack checked )same as if it were getting a full-on rebuild. All new bearings and clearances checked.

If yours checks out I'd sure do the same if it were me. Be sure to check the top ring lands for wear!



Terry

[Bored&Stroked]

I don't know - looks like there was quite a bit of rust in various areas of the bores. If true and if there is pitting, then why throw it back together without boring it? Heck, pistons are not that much money for stock style rebuilds and you're going to buy rings anyway. You can probably get a set of pistons and rings for $200 - $300. I'd just do it right and know that it is right . . . but hey, it is your engine, not mine! LOL

[Fortunateson]

Borrowed a pickle fork from a club member and went after the valves. First half hour I tried to pull those retainer clips. They weren't budging so... instead of following the official procedure I went about it a little backwards. First I released the keepers, then that conical disc, pulled out the valve, pulled the spring sideways to "spring" (LOL) it loose, and then gently tapped th evolve guide down to release it. Only two moderately stubborn. Bagged and tagged. For my next trick... cam and lifter removal. Pics later.

[cadillac512]

When I take the valves out of a old flathead, I pry each valve open and stick a 5/16" nut between the valve and seat to hold it open. When they're all open I pull the cam out with the engine upside down so the lifters are away from the cam. Then pop the nuts out, remove the keepers and the springs will fall out the bottom through the guide holes. Then the guides are easy to tap down and out.

That's my weird method, LOL!


Terry

[tubman]

Terry,

That sounds like a real good idea, The only downside I can see is that you may bend some valves, but if you're going to replace them anyway, who cares.

[Mart]

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That's a good idea above. I might try that on the next one I do.

[Fortunateson]

Well I got the lifters and cam out. The cam was a little hesitant but finally yielded. I would have thought it would have pulled right out? Anyway, on Thursday I'll be taking the block and its various bits to an old time engine rebuilder for assessment...

[Fortunateson]

Just checked the crank and it has the well know Merc dimple!!!

[Fortunateson]

B6AD29C5-622D-48C0-AF7F-53C7314E82D9.jpg

C95D3DEA-D431-46B6-B34E-57BBBE7428D1.jpg

61DAEC50-160B-407F-BC9B-85D86AEB64E0.jpg

81B23025-51CE-4CDA-9D56-CC6D19761441.jpgHere are some pics after I removed the valves, guides, lifters, and crank. An any tell if that is a stock cam? I figure if they had swapped in a Merc crank perhaps the changed the cam as well.

Well a couple of pics didn't load so I'll try again...

[Ol' Ron]

Yes, that is agood idea, I'll have to try that. Learn sumpin every day.

[Fortunateson]

Haven't done an update for awhile.

The engine shop discovered two or three teeny cracks from bolt holes to coolant circulation holes, the kind with their own part number. They will probably get pinned at any rate. One crack goes into a cylinder so one sleeve needed. Two weird cracks by the upper centre bolt hole to circulation hole. Engine shop looked and found that this area isn't a big deal as that it initially looked like it would easily pull a chunk of the deck out if over torqued. In reality it is anchored into th rest of the block. Kind of like and island in a river, it ain't going anywhere.
Engine came apart like it was built last week.

Started taking apart my C1BA which I think is a '51-53 block. I really just want the original Johnson lifters to use and they will get surfacing. However, this second engine had been rebuilt with very few miles on the clock. Bearings look quite good as do the cylinder walls. However.... five of the valves and one piston are so frozen it's like they were part of the block casting. I can't get the valves to lift up after removing the keepers and I even tried oxy/ace on hem to heat them up to see if the rust bond would give. The piston will be sacrificed. The engine shop is going to tank the second block for a short time as the cam bearings will contaminate their tank solution. I'm hoping that the valves will free up in order to get them out and finally the last five of those lifters. I may have to cut the valve spring and valve stem if they don't free up. I want to remove the last five guides. That however leaves me with a problem of getting the shortened valves out... wedge them out after I got the lifters? The shop says the second block might need two sleeves and the valve seats look kind of horrid so new seats perhaps. I'm going to keep this block but the first block is the one that's going to be rebuilt.

Advice appreciated!

[flatheadmurre]

Holesaw with a thin plastic sleeve on outside...holesaw should have the diameter just above the inner diameter of ring grooves. Drill down past uppper 3 rings...then pistons usually go out.
For valves...plasma cutter...cut stems and and springs...push lifters up...take cam out.
Plasma cut valveheads around stem...put a pipe on outersize just under guide...drive guides down into valley.
May seem like a bruteforce aproach but it works...
Pounding on a real stuck piston and you may damage cylinderwalls...crack them.

[Fortunateson]

Yeah I thought about the holesaw trick but I really appreciated the plastic sleeve idea! I don't have a plasma cutter so I was thinking cut off wheel for the valve stem and perhaps holesaw for the top of the valve.

[flatheadmurre]

For valvestems the big boltcutter works better then trying to shoehorn down an anglegrinder...

[Aarongriffey]

Good trick Mart. I must try that.
I bought an 8ba 11 years ago with the heads off, in a big wooden box, uncovered, in a three sided shed.
I got one piston out but cant get any more rod caps off. I’ve been soaking them with acetone/ATF but never been able to turn the crank to get at more caps.
I recently bought a boxed set of used rods so now I can torch off the rods that are holding me up. But first I must try the Magic Mart Trick.
As for bore or not to bore.............If you bore it to the next size there will never come a time in a few years from now when you will wish you had not done it, whereas if you just ring it.......

[Fortunateson]

I like the bolt cutter idea.

[Fortunateson]

Originally Posted by Aarongriffey

Good trick Mart. I must try that.
I bought an 8ba 11 years ago with the heads off, in a big wooden box, uncovered, in a three sided shed.
I got one piston out but cant get any more rod caps off. I’ve been soaking them with acetone/ATF but never been able to turn the crank to get at more caps.
I recently bought a boxed set of used rods so now I can torch off the rods that are holding me up. But first I must try the Magic Mart Trick.
As for bore or not to bore.............If you bore it to the next size there will never come a time in a few years from now when you will wish you had not done it, whereas if you just ring it.......

I am going to have my 8BA block bored to the next suitable size, perhaps only .0300 over.

My second block was a bit of a bugger but loosening the main journals allowed a wee bit of movement and I was able to free them except that one last piston.

What is the "magic Mart Trick"?

[tubman]

Any 8BA that won't support at least an 1/8" overbore ain't worth havin'.

[Fortunateson]

We'll see about the final bore dimensions...

I think I've come up with a better way to remove whatever is left of the stuck valves after I cut them in order to get the lifters. If they are still stuck I'm going to weld a redirod/allthread coupler to a piece of steel plate and then insert a bolt. Just a handy dandy jack screw should solve the problem.

[flatheadmurre]

If the valves are really stuck...they won´t move even with the biggest sledge in the shop...you need to drive the guide down a bit to get the horsehoeclip out...or bruteforce pull the clip out...then drive the guide up.

[Fortunateson]

Well the engine rehab has been on hold for a month, will get back to it hopefully this week. Meanwhile I mocked up my spare block to instill some excitement /motivation...