An argument FOR thermostats. ..

[Joe Immler]

Pardon my ignorance but what is a "wax" thermostat? I have never heard the term or, if I have, have long forgotten. (CRS Syndrome)

[Vic Piano]

The question of thermostats is akin to questions about what oil to use or what spark plugs to use, etc. I think that trial and error, in each case, is the answer for the individual vehicle. For example, I run Autolite 216 spark plugs, (after having problems with champion H-10's). I use 20-50 weight oil, and I don't use any thermostats. I live in Tampa, Florida where it is usually hot & humid and all my Flatheads run at between 170 to 190 degrees, depending on the time of year and the driving conditions i.e., highway or stop and go traffic (to clarify, at some of the forever stop lights, the temp will go up to 200+ degrees however, once traffic is moving, it doesn't take long before the temp is back to normal driving range). I do have 'Skips' water pumps on all my Flatheads and his coils on several, along with distributors rebuilt by Skip and 'Bubba'. The bottom line is; you need to test different scenarios in your vehicles, under the kind of driving conditions that you would expect to encounter 90% of the time, before you come up with the best combination for your Flatheads.

[V8COOPMAN]

Wow Vic........WELL SAID! DD

[prpmmp]

Originally Posted by Vic Piano

The question of thermostats is akin to questions about what oil to use or what spark plugs to use, etc. I think that trial and error, in each case, is the answer for the individual vehicle. For example, I run Autolite 216 spark plugs, (after having problems with champion H-10's). I use 20-50 weight oil, and I don't use any thermostats. I live in Tampa, Florida where it is usually hot & humid and all my Flatheads run at between 170 to 190 degrees, depending on the time of year and the driving conditions i.e., highway or stop and go traffic (to clarify, at some of the forever stop lights, the temp will go up to 200+ degrees however, once traffic is moving, it doesn't take long before the temp is back to normal driving range). I do have 'Skips' water pumps on all my Flatheads and his coils on several, along with distributors rebuilt by Skip and 'Bubba'. The bottom line is; you need to test different scenarios in your vehicles, under the kind of driving conditions that you would expect to encounter 90% of the time, before you come up with the best combination for your Flatheads.

I'm having a hard time understanding this,no disrespect but you have a 30 degree swing and admit the temperature rises at a long stop light.With 180 thermostat the temp would stay at that temp no matter what(as long as the cooling system is correct) I have a 8BA,use 5-30 syntec oil,have 180 stats in early heads,its stays at that temp at 90+ or 20 degrees and will idle all day long without heating up past 180. The thermostats control the temperature. Pete

[Kahuna]

Pete
I'd say you have everything just right: A clean block and a clean good radiator.
As you mention, there really should not be a big temperature spread if everything is right.
I think many of us, myself included, have failed in one way or another to be real sure that the block itself is as clean as it could be.

[Vic Piano]

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Originally Posted by prpmmp

I'm having a hard time understanding this,no disrespect but you have a 30 degree swing and admit the temperature rises at a long stop light.With 180 thermostat the temp would stay at that temp no matter what(as long as the cooling system is correct) I have a 8BA,use 5-30 syntec oil,have 180 stats in early heads,its stays at that temp at 90+ or 20 degrees and will idle all day long without heating up past 180. The thermostats control the temperature. Pete

I don't doubt what you said, and that that has been your experience. My experience, is as I stated in my previous post. I have five of the seven Flatheads I own at the moment, on the road, and I drive them as often as I can. I removed the thermostats because they were too restrictive and were causing the engines to run hot. When a car is moving, additional air flow is cooling the water in the radiator. When a car is sitting still, with little or no air moving, except what the fan pulls through it, the water in the radiator will get, and stay, hotter. If the water pumps pull hot water from the radiator into the engine, the engine will run hot. The thermostats theoretically open at a predetermined water temp (160 - 180 degrees) if the water in the engine is hotter, it won't cool down until the released water (having gone through the thermostat) has a chance to enter the upper tank on the radiator, travel down (where the air cools it) and into the lower tank, where the water pumps pull it back into the engine. Unless there is significant cooling of the water in the radiator, the engine will run hot still. I should also mention that all five of my 'on the road' Flatheads have new or refurbished radiators. I'm glad that your Flathead's cooling system works so well using thermostats, mind don't but, I have found a fix, that works in my Flatheads, and I'm happy with it.

[Ross F-1]

I've posted this before, it is a record of a conversation with a Stant thermostat engineer about the operating characteristics of thermostats.

[Ralph Moore]

Good read, so I guess it all boils down to( pun intended) each indvidual engine and how/ where it is used and a dozen other variables.

[WestCoast]

prpmmp, the thermostat does not control cooling, all it does is stop the water from circulating to the radiator till the water in the engine reaches the designed thermo temp, at that temp the water is allowed to flow to the radiator, most engines will run hotter when idling because of reduced water and air flow thru the rad, excessive heat build up can be caused by a bad rad, water pump, and a fan that does not pull enough air thru the rad, when at speed more air is being forced thru the rad, hench the engine runs cooler, if your car runs at lets say 200 degrees, the thermostat has nothing to do with that, it opens at 180 degrees and lets water flow, the cooling is left to the water pump, radiator, fan and a moving car, basically a thermostat is an idiot, it only knows how to do one thing, open at the temp it was designed for

[WestCoast]

joe imbler, the wax thermostat is referring to the medium used to make the thermo work, a wax thermo stat is one using wax to expand at temp and open the thermostat

[prpmmp]

Originally Posted by WestCoast

prpmmp, the thermostat does not control cooling, all it does is stop the water from circulating to the radiator till the water in the engine reaches the designed thermo temp, at that temp the water is allowed to flow to the radiator, most engines will run hotter when idling because of reduced water and air flow thru the rad, excessive heat build up can be caused by a bad rad, water pump, and a fan that does not pull enough air thru the rad, when at speed more air is being forced thru the rad, hench the engine runs cooler, if your car runs at lets say 200 degrees, the thermostat has nothing to do with that, it opens at 180 degrees and lets water flow, the cooling is left to the water pump, radiator, fan and a moving car, basically a thermostat is an idiot, it only knows how to do one thing, open at the temp it was designed for

Read my post again!! Thermostats control the temperature of the engine! If that is incorrect then I must have the only thermostats that do!! If the radiator is cooling at speed and not at idle then there is not enough air with the fan at idle(bigger or more fins on the fan,fan shroud) also the fan needs to direct the air away from the engine not on it(45 degrees)spacers do the trick! Pete

[FlatheadTed]

Just my take .Ford offered several types of Radiators some with a extra row of tubes for hot climates . Henry didn't like the spaghetti look of the hot manafolding above the engine on the v8s he had in the lab while developing his flathead such as the Cadillac .Since he was in a cold climate Henry decided the exhaust exiting through the block would give him a fast warm up plus a better looking engine , In my experiments having thermostats in a warm climate is not as critical on a flat head because of the fast warm up ,adding one can have a negative affect depending on other factors that's already been pointed out .To run a thermostat you should have Ideally the large Radiator offered by Ford for a hot climate ,To improve a marginal cooling system a shroud can be added and hi flow pumps that will also help ,a blocked Radiator will cause a low pressure zone in the block a hi flow pump will over come this to some degree .Also the sealing off of the top tank with a low pressure cap forces water through ,this is a different scenario to running high pressure so the water doesn't boil out .To run a single thermostat you would need a much higher flow pump like modern cars have .I think this is were the problem is a high flow pump will possibly over come the restricted thermostat and give you the results your looking for, but its what works for you .Ted
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Just curious, I do not currently have a running v-8 flathead , but has anyone ever tried a comparison test with two different style thermostats, one in each head, take temp. readings with infa red heat gun, before and after thermostats, out of radiator, various points on heads? Swap sides with thermostats and compare. Swapping sides would cancel other variables, internal heat transfer, water pump differences, ambient temps, air flow, etc. Might give interesting results.
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Ahh...no, with a pressure cap the temperature can go higher before it reaches it's boiling point, once water reaches it's boiling point the STEAM pressure overrides the cap.... or the radiator fails.

You have to ask yourself why does EVERY internal combustion engine manufacturer in the world put a thermostat in? Anyone who thinks an engine runs better without one is kidding themselves.
vvv

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by 4tcoupe

Just curious, I do not currently have a running v-8 flathead , but has anyone ever tried a comparison test with two different style thermostats, one in each head, take temp. readings with infa red heat gun, before and after thermostats, out of radiator, various points on heads? Swap sides with thermostats and compare. Swapping sides would cancel other variables, internal heat transfer, water pump differences, ambient temps, air flow, etc. Might give interesting results.

I did such tests here (see Post # 28):

This one compares the NAPA thermostat referred to with no thermostats: http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=113979

This one compares what I think is the highest flow thermostat for the 59A engine (the same NAPA stat referred to) with another thermostat that claims to be high flow and has been heavily promoted as such: http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=143576

[4ford]

ok a stupid question on a 1941 59ab how and where do you install thermostats?? will they stay in the hose buy themselves??

[JSeery]

See post #28 for one method. And NO, they will not stay in the hose by themselves.

Edit: corrected per Henry

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by 4ford

ok a stupid question on a 1941 59ab how and where do you install thermostats?? will they stay in the hose buy themselves??

Actually, it's post # 28. Use a single strand of stranded wire. Only one hose clamp necessary placed at the top of the neck to be sure and grab the wires. Cheap, easy, effective, and doesn't change the stock appearance of the engine.

[prpmmp]

Originally Posted by 4ford

ok a stupid question on a 1941 59ab how and where do you install thermostats?? will they stay in the hose buy themselves??

Hey!! This is what I did.I have weiand aluminum heads that have a 2 inch outlet.I had to grind out a little of the inside for the thermostat to set inside,then I had to file the top flat where the stat sits.My tubes that go to the radiator are 1 3/4 so I got a hose reducer from NAPA for the 2 inch to 1 3/4. I then put a little silicone on the top of the outlet,put the stat on slide the 2 inch hose on then put a little silicone on the top of the stat and slide the reducer over the stat and inside the 2 inch hose. Then when you put the tube inside the reducer you put a hose clamp on the bottom of the 2 inch around the outlet and another around at the tube, that holds the stat tight against the outlet and no coolent can get past until the stat opens. Hope you can understand my gibberish!! see avator Pete