Antique Engine Rebuilder complaint

[Logan]

Rich built the motor in our sedan. About 9 months ago the piston seized up, freezing the motor. We got on the phone with rich, and even though it was out of warranty he covered shipping charges from texas to illinois, then he rebored/sleeved all cylinders and put new pistons in it, then shipped it back to us.... All this done for free, no charge to us. I dont exactly what happened in your case, but Rich has alway stood behind his work for us.

[FL&WVMIKE]

I can not imagine an engine builder, NOT testing an engine, before he turns it over to the customer.
I don't think that this should be something that he would charge his customer for either.
After all, he is checking his own work.
MIKE

[just plain bill]

Originally Posted by FL&WVMIKE

I can not imagine an engine builder, NOT testing an engine, before he turns it over to the customer.
I don't think that this should be something that he would charge his customer for either.
After all, he is checking his own work.
MIKE

I've been following this thread and some where's along the discussion I gathered that the thread was regarding rebuilt short blocks. Test running a short block would require some time and expense. Visually inspecting might not allow inspector to see some of these problems. I once ran a machine shop with several employees and, in those days, you had to rely on the individual to be responsible for the quality of his work. This was a high volume shop and believe me S--t happens. You can't look over the shoulder of each employee but you are responsible for his or her work. All of the employees are not dedicated to their job. Some don't mind getting to work at 8 AM it was just that godawful wait till 4 30. I guess all of this is BS if the vendor in question has a 1 man shop.

[Maclab58]

It angers me to be the witness to a witch hunt over a single complaint from one upset customer. I am sure due to this thread, Rich will lose some well deserved business. I purchased an engine from Rich in January. Installation went fine, he included complete installation and break in instructions. I had a small pinhole in the oil tube from the valve cover to the block. rich offered to ship me one or bring one with him to Chickasha to the pre war swap meet. He has been nothing but helpful. As for my engine, it runs like a striped ape! I plan to buy another one for my new slant window sedan as soon as I can save up the money.

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

ALL ENGINE REBUILDERS, and INCLUDING ME, MY OPINION: There is no way, a rebuilder should have to run an Engine to check his work. It really tells you nothing anyway. I have seen Rebuilt engines on U-TUBE running with just a garden hose poked in the head, boy that does alot of good on a rebuild, and the video says, just listen to it Purr. Wore out engines that need rebuilding will purr on an engine stand, but in a car, won't get you across the street. Now, MOTOR TESTING, should start with a Clean, well machined block, and every subsequent part, or operation after. Just because you have new, or rebuilt parts, DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE USEABLE. They all have to be checked. I don't care who has rebuilt an Engine, there is NO Excuse, EVEN ONCE, for valve sets coming loose, piston sleeves down around the crankshaft, pistons stuck, or scored, Babbitt, or inserts going bad, cracks missed, valves leaking, Head Gasket because of improper decking, Flywheel housings out, along with every thing else. One thing many don't think about, if the shop you use, has a cylinder boring machine that sets on the top of a block to bore cylinders, and if it was made in the 40's up, and has never been checked for trueness, there is always a chance it is not. Those kind of portable boring bars are as good as any boring bar made, PROVIDED, THEY HAVE BEEN CHECKED FOR TRUENESS. These kind of bars, such as a Van-Norman, normally get, drug, slide, pushed, across the floor, tables, blocks, ect. and that destroys the hand scraped surface, that will let the bar bore from a flat true surface, at a 90 degree. The real big problem with these bars, are that Model A's, 90 %, and up have have been decked before in there life time. The most common surfacing machine was a Van Norman. It was about 6 ft. long, a maybe 12" grind stone in the middle, and both ends looked like a kitchen sink drain board. When you slide the block, and or heads across the grind wheel, it will deck the surface all right, but it was not necessarily running with the pan rail, so Boring cylinders at 90 degrees got lost some where. I have seen many of these surfacing machines, and some were wore, a 1/2 inch on the sides, and they were still using them. Herm.

[john in illinois]

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well said Jeff.

John

[zzlegend]

I second that Jeff. This reminds me of the Lion Speed Head thread. I just think its wrong to pound a guy on here for everyone to see. It appears that both the head maker and the engine builder have been doing this a long time and contribute alot to the Model A community. I say give the guy a chance. Not everyone has had a bad expierence. There are some very happy people out there using these two guys products. Any engine builder could have an unforeseen problem sometime, but i think most if not all would work with you to make it right. Phone calls do wonders sometimes.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by zzlegend

I second that Jeff. This reminds me of the Lion Speed Head thread. I just think its wrong to pound a guy on here for everyone to see. It appears that both the head maker and the engine builder have been doing this a long time and contribute alot to the Model A community. I say give the guy a chance. Not everyone has had a bad expierence. There are some very happy people out there using these two guys products. Any engine builder could have an unforeseen problem sometime, but i think most if not all would work with you to make it right. Phone calls do wonders sometimes.

Excuse me, ...I fail to see how it is the same. It is one thing to honestly state your personal experiences with a product, ...and it is another to "pound" a guy strictly on hearsay. I do agree that not everyone will have a bad experience with a product but when the truth is told giving all the facts, then consumers can make intelligent decisions based on their own observations. What I think many failed to understand in that thread is I personally don't care if Charlie sells a million Lion Heads, several of us had less than favorable experiences with our units and we should be entitled to tell our side of the story too without ridicule or criticism.

I might also add that there are many products that have been made by long-time manufacturers that contribute heavily to the Model A community that are still included in the 'Restorers Hall of Shame' due to their poor quality. Maybe we shouldn't speak the truth about those items either??

.

[Tom Wesenberg]

I'm still waiting to hear what the EXACT problem was? Was the drive gear oversized and binding? Did the drive gear have a badly machined tooth? Was the part damaged by dropping it?

Just would like to hear what the EXACT cause was for the problem.

[msmaron]

Originally Posted by Maclab58

It angers me to be the witness to a witch hunt over a single complaint from one upset customer. I am sure due to this thread, Rich will lose some well deserved business. I purchased an engine from Rich in January. Installation went fine, he included complete installation and break in instructions. I had a small pinhole in the oil tube from the valve cover to the block. rich offered to ship me one or bring one with him to Chickasha to the pre war swap meet. He has been nothing but helpful. As for my engine, it runs like a striped ape! I plan to buy another one for my new slant window sedan as soon as I can save up the money.

Is it REALLY that necessary for SOME Ford barners to try and destroy a person and their business here, I thought we were to discuss things not rip some one and their business apart.. This is way out of hand just like many of the posts here become... Can we NOT get along like civilized people and try to assist rather than brow beat and destroy!!

[Mitch//pa]

forget the he said she said conversations over the phone. the builder did make the offer to send the engine back for him to check. instead the consumer took the engine apart himself. doesn't that make any warranty's or good will null and void? i would think so.
this guy is being bashed without given the opportunity to correct the problem.

[AL in NY]

I'm with Jeff and Tom. What exactly was the problem with the part. We're still waiting to hear back from "Bob from Northport" to answer to some of the questions asked of him here. Rick is a "stand up guy" and does excellent work. I don't think we have the "whole" story from Bob concerning what really happened.

[2manycars]

Herm is right about checking new parts. I had an engine rebuilt by a guy who has been doing it for years here in CT. On start up, it had a knock, that sounded to me like a piston knock. I called immediatly, and he told me it was my fault for putting a high compression head on the engine. I put a standard head on and the noise was the same. I shorted out the plugs and found #3 was the noisy one. I pulled off the head again and found I could rock the #3 piston in the bore, and the others were snug. He still said it was my fault. I took the motor out and pulled the pistons and found a defective piston in #3. It was undersize by about .005. I bought new pistons, measured each one, and installed new rings, and it is now fine. I dont do business there anymore. I am not saying this relates to the original problem posted in the beginning of this thread, just agreeing with Herm that it is important to check every part and every measurement.

[Bob from Northport]

To Al in NY and Tom Wessenburg,
I have watched and read every post on this situation. This was NOT a witch hunt against Rich on my part. I called three times about this problem, and got no where with any discussion with him, except to send the engine back. As I asked already, how many of you would have totally disassmebled the engine and shipped it back at your expense??
As to what I have found-this is an attempt. I checked three gears(new) in my shop- all measured .902 on the drive gear diameter. The gear I received in the kit from AER measured .903, except for one area where the diameter measured .908. This gear was supposedly inspected by the manufacturer and found to be in perfect shape. There is one gear tooth that has a small chip off of it, as seen in the photo I enclosed. I did not see this when I sent it back to Rich, possibly I missed it. At the point across the gear is where the diameter changes, possibly causing the cam to move outward and back. The only way I can confirm that this gear is bad is to install it in another engine and run it. Dreamworks in Asheville said that he had the same problem, and when the part was removed and placed in another engine, no noise.
Right now, I can not simply take a good engine down and put this part in to satisfy the frustration seen here.
I know Rich did NOTmake it, merely supplied it in the rebuild kit. I was writing to complaining about his lack of concern with this engine and others we have questioned him about. Calling me a lier about a part causing an engine knock was absurd, since the engine runs quietly now with another gear assemble in it. We've been working on these cars as long as he has been alive. A simple "I'm sorry-I'll send a replacement part-just send back the bad one." would have been sufficient. Walt Bratton has never argued about a bad part EVER.
We've had some, but I still keep buying from him.
My thread was to let others know what happened and to question the warrenty process closer. I will place this part into an engine when the opportunity comes, and see what happens. That is all I can tell you about the cause of the knocking noise and what I have found.

Bob Campbell

[Tom Wesenberg]

" Calling me a lier about a part causing an engine knock was absurd, since the engine runs quietly now with another gear assemble in it."

I never called you a liar. In my 2 responses in this thread I simply asked to know the EXACT cause of the noise, so if the part was at fault we could all know what to keep an eye out for if we bought a similar part. I never took sides and never wanted to take sides, but just learn of a possible defective part and what to look for in that part.

[pat in Santa Cruz]

looks like another for the hall of shame. Can we find out who makes it? Was this supplied by Rich? I always rebuild a good original bushing with a new gear from Brattons or Snyders. Its an easy job. Never had any trouble with those.

[Bob from Northport]

The part in question was manufactured by RMJ International in Walton Hills, 44146. In the letter they returned with the part, they said "the assembly was thoroughly inspected, and found to have no defects. They could not see how the assembly could cause the cam to move forward and back, even though it did each revolution of the engine. There were some scratch marks on the main body, they referred to as damage. I had to wiggle and pry the unit out of the engine with plyers as it would not come out by hand like usual.

Thank all of you for your comments and interest. I didn't mean to create such a mess.

Henry Ford once said: Quality is doing it right when no one is looking."

Bob Campbell

[AL in NY]

Bob from Northport, thanks for the detailed explanation. The reason for my first post was to get clarification from you as to the real problem. This thread was starting to get out of hand as far as Antique Engine and Rich were concerned. Thanks again......

[C26Pinelake]

I was looking to have my engine rebuilt by him but you have now changed my mind and I won't go near him. Can anyone suggest someone in the Michigan / Illinois / Ohio area. Thanks Wayne

[Stan/MO.]

I bought a completely rebuilt chassie for my coupe....and I wish I could find out who rebuilt the motor...when you start it you can't even hear it run. The only thing you can hear is the spark in the distributor. My original motor had a loose wrist pin...you can imagine whate that sounded like. Any way I'm very pleased with my purchase...and I'm sure it is going to make a very enjoyable ride.
Stan