Crap Gas

[CarlG]

Saw this at work today:

ExxonMobil opposes a U.S. government plan to increase the amount of ethanol that must be blended into gasoline beyond the current 10 percent.

Through complicated legislation called the Renewable Fuel Standard (RFS), Congress has mandated that refiners, including ExxonMobil, blend increasing amounts of ethanol, largely based on food crops, into the nation’s gasoline supply.

Most gasoline sold in the U.S. today contains up to 10 percent ethanol, a level that most engines can use without damaging their components or the fuel system. But it is estimated that as many as 85 percent of cars on the road today are not equipped to handle blends above the 10 percent threshold.

In addition to engine damage, blends higher than 10 percent can increase the possibility of leakage from service station storage tanks. Smaller engines, such as those found in motorcycles, all-terrain vehicles and lawnmowers, are also vulnerable to ethanol-blended gasoline.

Despite this, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) proposed to increase the amount of ethanol that must be blended into gasoline in 2017, with potential consequences that can include damage to engines and fuel systems, loss of automotive warranty coverage and increased food prices. ExxonMobil believes that transportation fuels should be reliable to meet consumer needs, consistent with automobile and engine manufacturers’ recommendations and compatible with our transportation fuel infrastructure.

Consumers oppose increase
A recent survey of Americans found strong majorities in opposition to increasing the ethanol mandate:
More than three-quarters of those surveyed (77 percent) said they are concerned about potential government requirements to increase the amount of ethanol in gasoline beyond the current 10 percent – and the damage to engines and fuel systems that may happen as a result.

The same percentage expressed worry that automobile manufacturers may not provide warranty coverage for damage caused by using fuel with an ethanol blend over 10 percent in vehicles not specifically designed for it.
Similarly, more than three-quarters (76 percent) answered that they are anxious about how increased use of corn for ethanol could raise food prices and impact the levels of hunger around the world.

ExxonMobil supports free markets
ExxonMobil does not oppose biofuels. In fact, the company is investigating the promise of second-generation biofuels that don’t compete with food production for land and water, especially as some of these fuels may offer the potential to help expand energy supplies while reducing carbon dioxide emissions.

The company does, however, oppose mandates that distort the free market, ultimately increase costs to consumers and do not achieve environmental goals. More than 97 percent of all biofuels used in the U.S. are based on food crops such as corn. There are significant shortcomings of using corn ethanol, including its impact on land use. Research has also shown ethanol from corn can actually result in higher overall greenhouse emissions and require greater quantities of water than gasoline.

The EPA is accepting public comments on the proposed ethanol increase. Please consider responding as a member of the ExxonMobil Citizens Action Team, or submitting a comment directly on this issue to the EPA online. The public comment period ends on July 11, 2016.

[C26Pinelake]

The two Model A clubs and the AACA should all provide comments. Wayne

[Synchro909]

At every Service Station in any decent sized town over here, we can get 91, 95 and 98 octane straight petrol and E10. No one I know uses E10 even though it sells for 3 or 4 cents a litre less than 91 octane. I did the sums and even though E10 is cheaper per litre, you get so much less energy in each litre that it is more expensive on a per energy unit basis. I run 91 in my Model A (5.5:1 compression head with no trouble and have got as much as 30.5 mpg - that's about 24.5 miles per US gallon).
Seems to me from an outsider's perspective that you guys are being ripped off and now they want to go even further. Then there's the increase in food prices so you have to pay more AGAIN.

[Jeff/Illinois]

Ethanol is a total scam put onto the American public. It's nothing but free Govt. money to the big Ag businesses nothing more nothing less. Take away the big taxpayer subsidies and it costs more than gasoline. Nobody would use the stuff.

Germany had it right. They banned that crap years ago when it was proven to A.) drive the price of food skyward B.) ruin engines C.) take more energy to produce than what you get back and D.) actually cause more pollution. They said 'It doesn't make any sense to use food, to fuel cars."

[mshmodela]

So chicken will go to $9/lbs soon.

[foxfire42]

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Too bad the "comment" date is past

[burner31]

Originally Posted by mshmodela

So chicken will go to $9/lbs soon.

Hell, I have chickens, I'm soon to be rich.

Note to self: do not eat the chickens.

[ronn]

Hell, I have chickens, I'm soon to be rich.

Note to self: do not eat the chickens.
Keith

hahahahahahaha! great sense of humor Keith- woke me up this morning with a laugh!

[Joe K]

Originally Posted by burner31

Hell, I have chickens, I'm soon to be rich.

Note to self: do not eat the chickens.

While oxygenation of fuel is commendable and aids combustion (and provided by alcohol) there are other ways to get there. Tetraethyl lead was one and MTBE another, but now outmoded due to their proven environmental downsides. But there are other chemical arrows in the oil companies technical quivers.

Unfortunately ethanol in gas is now a "political football" to be kicked always in the direction of the farming lobby and environmentalists. And NOT in the direction of the consumer. And kept FOREVER now as the free market has "adjusted" to the EPA requirement and legislatively mandated market demand. Farming, of course, a human activity which is "green" (not really as there is no biological or energy balance to corn fed by petroleum based fertilizer - you're actually burning the oil LESS efficiently when burned as fertilizer.)

Much as ObamaCare is now compelling market demand in the Medical/healthcare/insurance field. And you all see where this one is going - and how it will die if it doesn't get us and our disposable income first.

Compulsion of markets is a dangerous precedent. The nice thing about free markets is they answer nicely to changes in demand caused by need, or even perceived need. Thus the market when left to its own devices will continuously balance demand against pricing, cost of product against ability to buy.

Our current world position as the foremost producer of petroleum products an example of this (fracking a tech response to oil market price run-ups of the 1970s which has totally undone Arabian Oil)

A compulsed market not so much. Compulsion freezes demand in time and leaves it unresponsive to ACTUAL market demand motivators/price adjusters that may happen along. Developments that may AID the consumer wallet?

Who here still has "Ma Bell" for their regulated landline telephone service? And who foresaw the rise of cellphones as a cost competitive alternative to land line phones?

Or who even still is served by a regional generation utility? The end of a regulated electric company monopoly has allowed the rise of multiple "Transcos." And separation of generation from transmission has allowed market competition into the electric supply market. Who would have thought that a mere restructuring of the electric supply system could aid the consumer? (its still the same old poles and wires and even generating stations.)

The tendency of free markets is always to err on the side of "financial efficiency." The tendency of regulated markets is always to err on the side of votes, or political lobbying, or special interests.

This will be your choice in November. As it is with each election. And I'm not just talking about a Presidential Election.

DeToqueville comes to mind:

In a democracy, the people get the government they deserve.

Joe K

[coupe1942]

Isn't this stuff really political views when you get right down to this last reply? I thought we were not supposed to be doing that here. Maybe I misread the stickies though.

[Safewiz]

I like chicken. But getting back to the subject matter, Ethanol is the great destroyer of all things. Being an avid hot rodder, and builder, I have seen the effects that ethanol has on not only the fuel system, carburetors, fuel lines, tanks and all things that house or transfer the fuel, it also changes the combustion, therefore effecting spark plugs, and you can see where I am going with this. While I am sure not everyone is going to agree with this, I would never put ethanol fuel in a vehicle with a carburetor. Modern cars with fuel injection can tolerate the ethanol a little longer, but later down the road it also has negative effects on them as well. Again, just my take on the subject. Since my A is my daily, I only run Sunoco Ethanol free. There are a few additives on the market that negate the harmful effects on the ethanol, but the choice I made to run Ethanol free works best for me. Again, this is just my take on things, and I am sure there are others who will disagree. But isn't that what makes this forum great, the ability to read all the input, and make your own informed decision.

[C26Pinelake]

Originally Posted by coupe1942

Isn't this stuff really political views when you get right down to this last reply? I thought we were not supposed to be doing that here. Maybe I misread the stickies though.

I totally agree with you! Not Model A talk for sure and of very little interest to most Barners. Wayne

[Joe K]

Originally Posted by coupe1942

Isn't this stuff really political views when you get right down to this last reply? I thought we were not supposed to be doing that here. Maybe I misread the stickies though.

You're correct. We are not to be political. This a technical board first.

I espoused no political viewpoint and advocated no party over another. I did explain the motivations (and resistance) to a political solution, and explained the downsides to the system as it is. And drew parallels demonstrating both the downside of market compulsion and advantage of free market.

Who here knows the "dirty secret" regarding the true financial cost to our country of clean air? An objective that could be nationally reached more efficiently WITHOUT a mandated market?

Should we not be aware of all of this? Some might not be. Others may differ in their solution to the problem. (Note I have not advocated anything as solution to oxygenating fuel other than "other arrows.") And those others are all free to make their non-political case too.

Maybe I was first? I think not. Doubtless there have been other similar threads - I think I may have contributed to them too.

Joe K

[Cool Hand Lurker]

" But isn't that what makes this forum great, the ability to read all the input, and make your own informed decision. "

NO. The Model A Ford is a machine. It works in a particularly designed way, with unique parts that go in certain places and perform a function. Not all of us know all about the Model A. We have this forum to get answers and make contacts with people who know the answers to Model A questions.

There are opinions too, some well thought out, some crackpot. Any "informed decision" based on opinions is not going to be a real decision, just another opinion.

Just the facts, Ma'm, just the Model A facts. Given in a civilized manner.

Just my opinion. Whoops, there I go again, getting political....

[KGBnut]

Thank you. I appreciate this information. I hate the nasty politics, but in my opinion, legislation and regulation that impacts the hobby is an appropriate topic. Yes, such discussions do (out of necessity) involve politics. As long as it stay respectful, I don't have a problem with it.

Let see what the moderators say. They own this real-estate and the decision is theirs.

[burner31]

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Not to be outdone, Chrysler's luxurious Dodge Deficit offers a unique eight-door design, which means your entire family will arrive in style at the soup kitchen.

[inex01]

I am so tired of political stuff! let us just talk about our Model A's ... much more enjoyable

[burner31]

Originally Posted by inex01

I am so tired of political stuff! let us just talk about our Model A's ... much more enjoyable

2nded