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Old 09-04-2017, 10:19 AM   #1
Steve Plucker
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Default So you have an all original car...OK...

So you have an all original car. Model T, A or whatever.

You notice it needs a new backing plate, so you exchange the old one with a better one.

Or you see that the chassis is just covered with old hard grease in many areas, so you decide to remove the body and really clean it up thus leaving much of the original paint as possible.

Then you notice that there are a few bearings that need replaced...and so on and so on........

I guess maybe you can see where I am going with this.

SO...at what point do you consider if this car is being restored or just being fixed up thus not being restored?

Where does one draw the line?

Thanks.

Pluck

Last edited by Steve Plucker; 09-04-2017 at 10:24 AM.
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Old 09-04-2017, 10:39 AM   #2
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Default Re: So you have an all original car...OK...

I can answer that.

If you flip your Hemmings Model A calendar back to July 2017, you will see a very professional picture of my all original 29 standard fordor. It drives like a dream; Easily the best driving Model A I have ever driven.

It does have new wheel bearings, rear end bearings, generator bearings, clutch, tires, fan belt, radiator hoses, motor mount rubber pads, and new oil and gas. Can I still call it "all original"? You bet. You see, those items are maintenance items. If your plan is to park the car and never drive it, then you don't need to replace those items. Might as well just take a picture of the car and hang it on the wall if you're going to do that.

Our all-original car is still very much alive. It still has all of the parts it left the factory with, including its factory applied paint job. The seats still have the factory material and stuffing (but I keep them covered with blankets to prevent tears), the frame and undercarriage has been kept clean all its life just like the topsides, and the car has never been taken apart. All the main bolts and hardware are still exactly where the factory workers left them. Pretty sure that qualifies as an all-original car by almost every definition.

So, where do you draw the line on originality being lost? That is highly subjective! My personal opinion:

When you remove the body
When you do a repaint.
When you replace any interior cloth
When you change the motor
When you swap any part, like the rear end, with a part from another car
When you "modify" the car (high compression head, overdrive, etc.)

Opinions will vary.
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Old 09-04-2017, 06:23 PM   #3
H. L. Chauvin
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Default Re: So you have an all original car...OK...

Hi Steve,

In my humble opinion to respond to:

"So you have an all ORIGINAL car. Model T, A or whatever .... Where does one draw the line?"

Maybe just one (1) very simple way to look at it:


1. Here is Model A owner (Al): The minute Model A owner named (Al) heard a very very slight knock in his engine with a sensitive stethoscope, he removed a few shims to adjust his Babbitt bearings, prior to going to show his "new" girlfriend his beautiful sparkling Model A.

Now his Model A is no longer ORIGINAL.

2. On the other hand, here is Model A owner (Bo): The minute Model A owner named (Bo) heard a very very slight knock in his engine with a sensitive stethoscope, he did NOT remove a few shims to adjust his Babbitt bearings. He loaded his Model A on a trailer and towed to go show his "new" girlfriend his beautiful sparkling Model A.

His Model A is still ORIGINAL.
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Old 09-04-2017, 06:59 PM   #4
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Default Re: So you have an all original car...OK...

In was once an owner of a 30k mile M of O Model A.
I did some upgrades like a better set of Original plated bumpers, oriiginal dash and NOS running boards.
Nothing was ever added that was not original .....in original Ford produced condition ....to the car. Oops one thing ...the drivers window was so yellow and spider webbed that I replaced it with a replacement but XxX glass
I consider that car "original"
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Old 09-04-2017, 07:19 PM   #5
glenn in camino
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Default Re: So you have an all original car...OK...

In my opinion, the most important items are original paint and upholstery. Minor mechanical items are unimportant
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Old 09-04-2017, 07:30 PM   #6
H. L. Chauvin
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Default Re: So you have an all original car...OK...

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Maybe just very typical, Model A Forum Stories:

Another comparison might be that a certain old hard headed, conceited Grandpa was filmed standing up & swearing on his precious Bible at his Family Reunion that he is 100% pure something or other ..................

Then, after Grandpa sits down, his 15 year old great-grandson gets up reads aloud the results of the D & A test that Gramps took last month and forgot all about it !!!

Come to find out, Gramp's D & A heritage indicates Gramps is kin to everyone from a Country formerly listed in the Original League of Nations ...... but for Gramps who also has an all Original Model A ..... this D & A nonsense goes in one ear and exits the other.
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Old 09-04-2017, 08:11 PM   #7
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Default Re: So you have an all original car...OK...

I remember being at a car gathering 40 years ago and there was an original car from the 50's there. It had around 7000 miles on it. One guy was up in arms because it was no longer original because the carb and plug wires had been changed. It was all down hill from there!!!

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Old 09-04-2017, 08:46 PM   #8
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Default Re: So you have an all original car...OK...

I know I'm new at this but I would think that if you wa's wanting to drive it I wouldnt worry about originality but safety and good maintenance, I know I might stur up a hornets nest by saying this, but the way I look at it eventually no matter how many times you wash it or change the oil something is going to have to be changed so why worry so much about if it has the original hose clamps or if you still use the original grease fittings as long as it runs good and stops like it should I would consider it an original because no matter what anyone says they don't make any more of them and if you have one that runs then it's original, sorry if I stured it up but that's just my opinion
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Old 09-04-2017, 08:53 PM   #9
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Default Re: So you have an all original car...OK...

That's why I just say mine is Original Metal
I have replaced a few things but those things had large holes in them and were needed to drive the car.
Mine has been painted but it was no later than the 50's.
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Old 09-04-2017, 11:09 PM   #10
dean from bozeman
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Default Re: So you have an all original car...OK...

P.S. I totally agree with you on this one.

'It does have new wheel bearings, rear end bearings, generator bearings, clutch, tires, fan belt, radiator hoses, motor mount rubber pads, and new oil and gas. Can I still call it "all original"? You bet. You see, those items are maintenance items. If your plan is to park the car and never drive it, then you don't need to replace those items. Might as well just take a picture of the car and hang it on the wall if you're going to do that.' P.S.

Now here is a can of worms opening:

What if the car is an all original 20,000 mile survivor except for a gas cap that had been replace through the years and you put on an original gas cap with a patina that matches the rest of the car? Is it not original anymore? When the gas cap was replaced along the way, did that mean that it would never be original again?

The adjective definition of original is:present or existing from the beginning Therefore the lost gas cap from years ago doomed the 20,000 mile car from being "totally" original. I would therefore argue that there are degrees of originality.

Almost every year at the MARC national meet we get to judge a vehicle or two that is considered original. You can see that there have been some slight changes through the years to keep these vehicles on the road. Do we deduct for that? Yes, we do. Therefore, even these wonderful vehicles are found to have a degree of originality.

If we used the definition of original as 'present or existing from the beginning', we would have zero original Model A's.

Let's applaud those we have that are considered original. Though their degree of originality may differ, we can appreciate them and learn from them...whether they have the gas cap that came with the car when it was new or not.
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Old 09-05-2017, 07:38 AM   #11
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Default Re: So you have an all original car...OK...

The correct police are a sorry bunch. If you want all original buy a diamond ring.
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Old 09-05-2017, 07:44 AM   #12
figment
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Default Re: So you have an all original car...OK...

Most of the "Original Cars" that I have seen at the National meets that were in fine point judging were mostly as follows.

Mostly original paint and sometimed primer showing through.
Vehicle has not been restored or disassembled.
Some minor repairs and maintenance , but mostly original bolts and nuts
Most of the interior is original.

The car or trucks were usually clean or were cleaned underneath.
The interior was cleaned and vacuumed.

This is only what I observed , others will have other information.
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Old 09-05-2017, 07:45 AM   #13
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Default Re: So you have an all original car...OK...

A diamond ring stone is not original is is cut to fit the mounting or style.
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Old 09-05-2017, 07:51 AM   #14
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Default Re: So you have an all original car...OK...

I have a February 14 1928 Tudor. The interior of the car is exactly as it came from the factory. Grey cloth with a stripe ,that was dropped in February of 1928. I am sure there are very few examples that still exist. This interior has to be one of the best to survive, the only damage is on the carpet left foot area.
I have put together a nine page list of the early original factory parts and the timeline of their usage that are on this car. The parts were made functional and safe when I bought the car most parts were already painted.
The top was duck tapped on the body and hood partly stripped so they were redone. The fenders have some minor flaws that happened over the years they were not repaired .The car is not a garage ornament.
I consider this car to be original except for a few maintenance items it's as the factory workers assembled .
The only thing that is for sure is nothing is for sure.
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Old 09-05-2017, 08:24 AM   #15
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Default Re: So you have an all original car...OK...

Is your car still a Model A? does the thousands of dollars you spent on 'touring' upgrades make you no different than a hotrod builder without a sawzall? as long as it looks 'original' on the outside pump 4 grand into a 200 cu in L head engine to wrest 15 horsepower out of it...spend thousands to go 65 mph on a freeway so some kid in a Honda can tailgate you..air conditioning? really?..

Perhaps the things done to make it 'better' changes the cars soul..straight cut gears take skill to operate,mechanical brakes take sense to have,when your teeth rattle your pushing it too hard...hot?open the windshield,sweat a little..

you can have an 'original' car, just like the one designed by Ford,hell scratch around enough and you can do it with Rouge parts..originality isn't a judging standard,its a choice made by the owner..
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Old 09-05-2017, 09:56 PM   #16
dean from bozeman
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Default Re: So you have an all original car...OK...

Railcarmover, "original" in the context of this thread is a car that has not been restored or altered. Usually they are low mileage vehicles.

Sometimes "original" can mean to restore to the specifications that were used to create that vehicle.

With the first definition of "original" the only choice is to keep it in that condition or not. The judging standards are designed to help folks restore or correct items so that the vehicle is like that which was driven off the assembly line.

Judging standards are based on originality. So perhaps, originality is the judging standard.
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Old 09-06-2017, 07:34 AM   #17
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Default Re: So you have an all original car...OK...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Railcarmover View Post
Is your car still a Model A? does the thousands of dollars you spent on 'touring' upgrades make you no different than a hotrod builder without a sawzall? as long as it looks 'original' on the outside pump 4 grand into a 200 cu in L head engine to wrest 15 horsepower out of it...spend thousands to go 65 mph on a freeway so some kid in a Honda can tailgate you..air conditioning? really?..

Perhaps the things done to make it 'better' changes the cars soul..straight cut gears take skill to operate,mechanical brakes take sense to have,when your teeth rattle your pushing it too hard...hot?open the windshield,sweat a little..

you can have an 'original' car, just like the one designed by Ford,hell scratch around enough and you can do it with Rouge parts..originality isn't a judging standard,its a choice made by the owner..
Very well said. I like to keep them the way they were made too. Others have their own opinion what "our" Model A should be or could be. Would a true collector add paint to a Rembrandt?
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Old 09-06-2017, 09:21 AM   #18
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Default Re: So you have an all original car...OK...

Quote:
Originally Posted by figment View Post
A diamond ring stone is not original is is cut to fit the mounting or style.
I just knew it.
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Old 09-06-2017, 09:52 AM   #19
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Default Re: So you have an all original car...OK...

After reading all these responses I see there are more categories than just original and not. I think it is common sense that all vehicles need routine maintenance. This includes replacing worn or broken parts, paint, upholstery, grease,oil, water. If one wants to say if you repainted your car it is no longer original then the first time you change oil it is no longer original which, of course, is ridiculous. Hemmings has alway been the recognized authority on these things and they have categories for classifying our cars. I think we should not find ways to separate our cars. We all have some awesome cars in there own way. Amazing restorations. Fine example of an original. Daily drivers showing wear but being driven. Mine is more original than yours sounds a lot like school kids saying my dad can beat up your dad.
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Old 09-06-2017, 10:09 AM   #20
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Default Re: So you have an all original car...OK...

My CCPU is neither original or restored, I call it refurbished.
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