B Block Crank Q...Survey

[hardtimes]

I'm guessing that a possible way to persuade a crank maker (Burlington) to consider making a full sized B crank, is to present numbers of owners / users of Ford B blocks. How to go about gathering data to show market, is my question. Anyone have suggestions
I have two B blocks in use and believe that hundreds/thousands are in use. I recently needed a full sized B crank for one recently....no new available !

[Pete]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

I recently needed a full sized B crank for one recently....no new available !

Have one welded. You can stroke it while your at it.

[colin1928]

Rick as someone who has B model engines I will always welcome new Cranks coming into the market I think this end of the market is quite small as the numbers of B,s engine made was tiny compared to A,s
There are already other manufactures making B cranks Scat Crower Moldex (yes I know scat is a 50/50 A/B ) and you can always machine 1 from billet
Will watch with interest how many put up their hands

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by colin1928

Rick as someone who has B model engines I will always welcome new Cranks coming into the market I think this end of the market is quite small as the numbers of B,s engine made was tiny compared to A,s
There are already other manufactures making B cranks Scat Crower Moldex (yes I know scat is a 50/50 A/B ) and you can always machine 1 from billet
Will watch with interest how many put up their hands

Hey Colin,
Another reason that I'm looking/asking for ideas about crank making, is I'm trying to find an approach to Burlington regarding making a 5 main crank for the coming new block. Since no one offers an off the shelf full size B crank, I'm wanting angles Burlington on what it would take to urge them to make a full size B and a full size drilled (for oil pressure to rods/mains) 5 main B !
Yes, I'm aware that a crank maker will make you anything size/shape crank, one off, for huge money. I'm wondering why , say Burlington, cannot / will not stock some full size B and 5 main B cranks. We all know that they would sell. As an offer of proof, look at the Burlington crank situation now...every one made has been sold and guys are looking for more now. Scat is selling yet, being the current source of an undersized rod crank.
Someone said...buy one from source as Derek. Ha, talk to him and you will not make that statement again, as his one off race crank is costing him arm/leg !

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by Pete

Have one welded. You can stroke it while your at it.

Hey Pete,
Well, the idea is that I'm trying to avoid using an 'old' worn out B/C crank, which after repairs and refinements the cost is comparable to buying an off the shelf crank. And, you still wind up with a crank that has gone through 80 some years of stress cycles /gyrations and how much life is left in it.
A while back, a machinist that I know made about two dozen drilled full C cranks. I regret now not having bought more. How could that guy make/sell a C crank for $1100. and a crank company who sells for 2/3K can't make a B/C crank

[colin1928]

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Rick
5 main cranks now that is something I would at a reasonable cost buy

[johnneilson]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

Hey Pete,
Well, the idea is that I'm trying to avoid using an 'old' worn out B/C crank, which after repairs and refinements the cost is comparable to buying an off the shelf crank. And, you still wind up with a crank that has gone through 80 some years of stress cycles /gyrations and how much life is left in it.
A while back, a machinist that I know made about two dozen drilled full C cranks. I regret now not having bought more. How could that guy make/sell a C crank for $1100. and a crank company who sells for 2/3K can't make a B/C crank

Rick,

You have to look at how the cranks are made. The $1100 cranks were cast iron. I can probably dig up the patterns if you want to buy them. I can also help direct you to foundry and core producers. You can becomes the "C"rank King.

When you start talking about 5 bearing cranks, just the extra 2 journals will close to double the amount of machining as you add in 4 more counterweights.

The other aspect of the 5 bearing crank is rods. These are not something you buy off the shelf. Once you get to the level of a 5 bearing crank, how do you justify not using the absolute best rods? Really good insurance is not cheap or that plentiful.

Let me know if you want to pursue the castings, John

[Jim Brierley]

a friend of mine cast some "C" cranks a while back. I'm running one under my 4-port Riley. he had so much trouble getting them machined he finally gave up. be sure you check this out before leaping into making them.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by Jim Brierley

a friend of mine cast some "C" cranks a while back. I'm running one under my 4-port Riley. he had so much trouble getting them machined he finally gave up. be sure you check this out before leaping into making them.

Hey Jim,
IMO, your friend made some good equipment. But, like others including the now former Burlington owner Mr. Robinson, suffered bad mouthing of his crank, even by those who didn't know him and/or his product !
From the several comments here ,thus far, it seems that if we are to have new 5 main B/C cranks at all, that those cranks will have to be custom made at great expense.

BTW,
IMO,it's too bad that the recent detailed disclosure by Mr. Robison, concerning his making of the Burlington Crank, hadn't been recorded here a long time ago. It sure made me feel more at ease, connected and inclined to buy one of his creations. I had heard some of the negativity, toward his cranks, that he wrote about.
I have gained a better perspective and more gratitude towards people like Tod Buttermore who faces all of the obstacles that we discuss here (i.e.- investment/time/machinery/criticisms, etc) and still take on the challenges of producing something for our hobby ! Now, if only HE made 5 main cranks !

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by johnneilson

Rick,

You have to look at how the cranks are made. The $1100 cranks were cast iron. I can probably dig up the patterns if you want to buy them. I can also help direct you to foundry and core producers. You can becomes the "C"rank King.

When you start talking about 5 bearing cranks, just the extra 2 journals will close to double the amount of machining as you add in 4 more counterweights.

The other aspect of the 5 bearing crank is rods. These are not something you buy off the shelf. Once you get to the level of a 5 bearing crank, how do you justify not using the absolute best rods? Really good insurance is not cheap or that plentiful.

Let me know if you want to pursue the castings, John

Hey John,
I've got Crower rods now, you know of any better
'C-Crank King'...I like it, as it has a good sound, but, '5x5 C Crank King' better, eh !

'extra two journals close to double amount of machining'
I rec'd an email from former Burlington owner , concerning this subject. He said that he thinks that once the product is established, that the cost would not be much more than crank they produced for the A/B engine. Heck, I do not know and that's why discussion.

Regarding 'buying patterns'....HEY..if they (cranks) aren't worth the effort/money....why would the patterns not be FREE . Look at it as a contribution to the hobby

[johnneilson]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

Hey John,
I've got Crower rods now, you know of any better
'C-Crank King'...I like it, as it has a good sound, but, '5x5 C Crank King' better, eh !

'extra two journals close to double amount of machining'
I rec'd an email from former Burlington owner , concerning this subject. He said that he thinks that once the product is established, that the cost would not be much more than crank they produced for the A/B engine. Heck, I do not know and that's why discussion.

Regarding 'buying patterns'....HEY..if they (cranks) aren't worth the effort/money....why would the patterns not be FREE . Look at it as a contribution to the hobby

Rick,

How much was the Burlington crank?
Every feature and journal adds additional machining, checking and contributes to the overall tolerances of the final product. It would probably not double the cost, but will be additional labor/machine time etc. There will be an impact. Even just the final grinding will be more expensive.

If you already have Crower rods, have you spoken to Crower about 5 bearing cranks? I do know some folks running them.

And for the patterns, (cranks) I never said they were not worth the effort or money.
You are free to make your own, or have someone make them for you.
They represent a considerable amount of money and time investment.

Hell, I just remembered where a old crankshaft lathe is, you can machine them too! There is a very good crank grinding house down the street from me also.

I have been doing the Camshafts because I needed something different.
I have sold a couple blanks to others to help out the hobby, trust me, it hasn't funded a tank of gas yet. I have had the guy who grinds my special cams fix a couple that other grinders completely screwed up. Just because one machinist can't do it doesn't mean nobody can.

Join the hobby for real, start making parts.

Gotta go, the machine just finished it program, J

[Juggler]

Go for it Rick

You know you want to....

[Tod]

I could probably get a casting sample made for free if the pattern would be made available for one. That would give a way to estimate casting costs. How much would machining, say, 10, cranks cost? Or, how much would it cost to machine up a sample or 2?

Tod

[quickchange]

Rick, How much are you willing to pay for a new B 3 bearing crank and a new 5 bearing crank. Bear in mind with a 5 you will need the extra 2 supports or a girdle,
Seems to be a number of used 3 bearing ones out there due to the fact many B blocks are cracked & get tossed ,To buy a piece of shaft, machine it, drill it, desress it, grind it , then nitrate it . You can,t get a $50 screw for $5 bucks anymore even if you marry it , least not down here, Bit like my china radiator, they put the filler hole in the wrong place , Yes made it cheep but it don,t fit , least i can fix it . Derek in a hot NZ 80*

[steve hackel]

As each individual chimes in on this discussion, keep one thing in mind most of the responses are being based upon the future need of a B' (or C') crank because the new blocks that Tod is casting will require one of these and not a new Burlington (at least not a Burlington A'). hint, hint

Tod was up-front with all of us, asking for our WANTS, NEEDS & DESIRES, enough to go ahead with his project but basing it entirely on the response of the survey which was somewhat slanted towards the originals or purists that WANTED a better product, but just didn't want it to look different than an A'!
OK, so now what? Tods blocks will be a boon to the hobby, but - there is a catch; his stock looking A' blocks will all need a B'/C' crank, and where are they all going to come from? Are you going to sell some restorer your spare just so his engine still looks stock . Tods blocks are all going to be cast for full pressure to the mains, but the blocks & rear main will all be cast for an original B' style crank & oil slinger. Tods A' blocks will all have a B' rear main bearing cap that will not accept an A 'oil pan unless the pan is modified; is everyone willing to modify their oil pan - is everyone able to modify their pan and not have it leak oil? Tods blocks (currently) are all cast with an A' size vale cover; how many of you have a B' cover, an aluminum B' cover, a B' valve cover for an OHV, a Bill Stipe side cover with provisions for a filter, and so on..... Last on my list of questions would be the provision for a fuel pump; very few run an original fuel pump, but the pump BOSS is important to some. In my case, it happens to be where my side drive mounting plate bolts to that supports my magneto!

So, to anyone that has the ability, or anyone that will listen, there is probably only 1% or 2% of us Bangers that will go out and buy a Scat crank of have a Billet crank cut - whether it be a 3 main or 5 main bearing version the cost is what drives most of us. There needs to be a 3 main bearing B'/C' crank shaft available in 2 flavors; #1, stock fit & size with a stock oil slinger for the stock type blocks, and #2, the same crank but drilled for pressure to the rods, and the rear main machined from the factory that will accept a 2 piece Chevy style rear main oil seal. With one side bar note; Tod would need to modify his patterns so that his finished castings (block & rear main cap) would accept the 2 piece rear oil seal that would fit the modified B'/C' crank eventually provided by someone far better than I.
I am currently looking into having the rear flange of the B' style oil pan stamped so anyone wishing to use their A' oil pan would be able to modify their pan and install this with minimal tools or abilities. My contribution

[Tod]

Originally Posted by steve hackel

As each individual chimes in on this discussion, keep one thing in mind most of the responses are being based upon the future need of a B' (or C') crank because the new blocks that Tod is casting will require one of these and not a new Burlington (at least not a Burlington A'). hint, hint

Tod was up-front with all of us, asking for our WANTS, NEEDS & DESIRES, enough to go ahead with his project but basing it entirely on the response of the survey which was somewhat slanted towards the originals or purists that WANTED a better product, but just didn't want it to look different than an A'!
OK, so now what? Tods blocks will be a boon to the hobby, but - there is a catch; his stock looking A' blocks will all need a B'/C' crank, and where are they all going to come from? Are you going to sell some restorer your spare just so his engine still looks stock . Tods blocks are all going to be cast for full pressure to the mains, but the blocks & rear main will all be cast for an original B' style crank & oil slinger. Tods A' blocks will all have a B' rear main bearing cap that will not accept an A 'oil pan unless the pan is modified; is everyone willing to modify their oil pan - is everyone able to modify their pan and not have it leak oil? Tods blocks (currently) are all cast with an A' size vale cover; how many of you have a B' cover, an aluminum B' cover, a B' valve cover for an OHV, a Bill Stipe side cover with provisions for a filter, and so on..... Last on my list of questions would be the provision for a fuel pump; very few run an original fuel pump, but the pump BOSS is important to some. In my case, it happens to be where my side drive mounting plate bolts to that supports my magneto!

So, to anyone that has the ability, or anyone that will listen, there is probably only 1% or 2% of us Bangers that will go out and buy a Scat crank of have a Billet crank cut - whether it be a 3 main or 5 main bearing version the cost is what drives most of us. There needs to be a 3 main bearing B'/C' crank shaft available in 2 flavors; #1, stock fit & size with a stock oil slinger for the stock type blocks, and #2, the same crank but drilled for pressure to the rods, and the rear main machined from the factory that will accept a 2 piece Chevy style rear main oil seal. With one side bar note; Tod would need to modify his patterns so that his finished castings (block & rear main cap) would accept the 2 piece rear oil seal that would fit the modified B'/C' crank eventually provided by someone far better than I.
I am currently looking into having the rear flange of the B' style oil pan stamped so anyone wishing to use their A' oil pan would be able to modify their pan and install this with minimal tools or abilities. My contribution

Correction. My blocks will offer a choice of rear tails for the A or B with corresponding caps. If you want an A block then that's what you get. If you want a B block a simple core change allows me to cast and machine that. When we get to the 5x5 blocks we will do what is needed there also.

Tod

[southfork]

The original Henry Ford B, BB and C cranks, as mentioned are probably still out there in far greater numbers than original unbroken B/BB/C blocks. Won't these help satisfy the demand when Tod's blocks are finished and sold? or, are some of these originals not really an option? For example, are the original B cranks having the removable, pinned-on weights just as usable as the cranks with the weights that are integral with the crank?

[colin1928]

Originally Posted by southfork

The original Henry Ford B, BB and C cranks, as mentioned are probably still out there in far greater numbers than original unbroken B/BB/C blocks. Won't these help satisfy the demand when Tod's blocks are finished and sold? or, are some of these originals not really an option? For example, are the original B cranks having the removable, pinned-on weights just as usable as the cranks with the weights that are integral with the crank?

Given the choice between integral weights and fords removable B weights I find that the B crank with the removable weights works better as it is closer to being a full counter weight than the integral

[Chris Haynes]

Five bearing cranks and blocks to go with them are in the works.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by Chris Haynes

Five bearing cranks and blocks to go with them are in the works.

Yeah, this would be the hot ticket , indeed ! I'd be in for this package for 5 main block , maybe two, depending. Wonder what the crank material is/will be