Disc Brakes V Bendix Brakes-Which performs best??

[waynet]

Guy's, I am unfamiliar with these older Bendix self energizing brakes. Should I convert to boosted front disc brakes, on our 1948 Mercury M47 (Ford F1) pickup, or keep the older self energizing drum brakes? I cant seem to shake the "possible" drum brake fade from my head at the moment.

[aussie merc]

which ever way you go you will need to do a total system change front and rear as brakes are a balanced system [front and rear] you need to do the sums which often have hidden costs such as new tyres and wheels. Yes discs do have less fade but often dont work that well when there cold not totally familiar with your current brake system but something as simple as a remote booster [VH40/44] can be quite effective or even changing the lining material can change how your brakes preform. Brake fade is caused by linnings overheating how and why there are too many factors to go into here and can often depend on where you live ie live in hilly country your brakes work harder and longer than the wide open spaces find a brake specialist and talk to them it cant hurt .Also check to see if anyone has been in there before and changed something something as simple as changeing cylinder size as little as a 16th" has major effects and check all your flex lines if they have gone soft they will balloon and cause mass dramas and near impossible to diagnose [rule of thumb change every 10 years ]

[aussie merc]

ps me again! check with your local authorities changing brake systems can require you to totally reengineer the vehicle and cause dramas with getting the vehicle registered for road use here in Aus such a change would also remove any chance of historic plates

[waynet]

Originally Posted by aussie merc

ps me again! check with your local authorities changing brake systems can require you to totally reengineer the vehicle and cause dramas with getting the vehicle registered for road use here in Aus such a change would also remove any chance of historic plates

Maybe stick with the original self energizing with softer pads, and a booster, do you think? Lots of steep hills where I live!

[Mart]

I'd say stick with what you have and make sure they are in good condition. After all, the brakes you have are used as an upgrade on earlier models. A booster won't make them work any better, just reduce the load you're feeling at the pedal. You need to drive carefully on those steep hills and make sure your gearbox will hold you in a low gear. Let the engine do the braking and use the brakes as little as possible.
How did people drive about in that area in the 1950s? On drum brakes 99.9% of the time I bet.

[aussie merc]

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softer material maybe not however booster and slightly harder material possibly the booster will reduce the pedal effort for the same brake pressure so in theory you should be able to generate higher pressure's increasing shoe to drum force which will allow you to use a harder material with a higher operating temp range so better long term braking DOWNSIDE; higher pressures will place considerable more strain on hydraulic hoses and cupseals so you will need to check the condition of everything not just bang a booster on

[mhsprecher]

Make sure they are adjusted properly, too.

I know others have switched to discs in the front. I am sure someone will chime in later.

[19Fordy]

This 1954 truck has disc brakes on the front and drums on the rear.
It was a huge improvement. You could instantly feel the improved stopping ability..

[51 MERC-CT]

Did a front disc conversion on my '51 Merc. over 15 years ago.
The '49-'51 Merc. brakes are virtually identical to pickup brakes.
This is just a peek at what is involved in just installing the discs and booster
Big improvement and no regrets.

[paul2748]

You don't need a booster even if you go to disc brakes. I replaced the front brakes in my 54 Ford with 80 Granada discs without power booster and the brakes work fine. I doubt a 48 pickup is any heavier than my 54 Ford.


If your looking for a conversion kit, go to Engineered Components (ECI) in Connecticut as they have many conversion kits. I'm pretty sure they have a kit for a pickup using the stock wheels.

[waynet]

Your replies and advice are worthy thinking, please keep them coming.

[waynet]

Originally Posted by 51 MERC-CT

Did a front disc conversion on my '51 Merc. over 15 years ago.
The '49-'51 Merc. brakes are virtually identical to pickup brakes.
This is just a peek at what is involved in just installing the discs and booster
Big improvement and no regrets.

What brand conversion kit did you use?

[51 MERC-CT]

Originally Posted by waynet

What brand conversion kit did you use?

Don,t remember but it was equivalent to this one on EBAY (but for Mercury).

You would also have to acquire a disc/drum master and booster (if wanted)
Also residual valve/s and proportioning valve.




https://www.ebay.com/itm/38384749370...8AAOSw4PxZ-1--

[Lawson Cox]

Originally Posted by waynet

Guy's, I am unfamiliar with these older Bendix self energizing brakes. Should I convert to boosted front disc brakes, on our 1948 Mercury M47 (Ford F1) pickup, or keep the older self energizing drum brakes? I cant seem to shake the "possible" drum brake fade from my head at the moment.

I have been driving old Fords with Bendix brakes for close to 80 years, flat country, mountain country, all year around and I have NEVER experienced "brake fade". Never. These old Fords, if well maintained are very reliable and safe as Henry built "em. Add all this extra expensive stuff you guys are talking about and still bust a brake hose. Drive 'em like they were meant to be driven back in the day, and enjoy them. If you want disc brakes, drive some modern ChiCom rice burner. Jeeeezzzz. My 2¢

[36rgtop]

Originally Posted by Lawson Cox

If you want disc brakes, drive some modern ChiCom rice burner. Jeeeezzzz. My 2¢

Ford started using disc brakes about 1965 and I doubt that they will ever go back.

[waynet]

If keeping to the original braking system would it be recommended to replace the existing single feed master cylinder with a dual feed in case of a hose burst?

[waynet]

That's good hear that the original type are efficient and reliable.

[waynet]

[QUOTE=Lawson Cox;2057602]I have been driving old Fords with Bendix brakes for close to 80 years, flat country, mountain country, all year around and I have NEVER experienced "brake fade". Never.

That's good to hear the original system is efficient and reliable.

[paul2748]

Disc brakes are the standard throughout the world. Now 4 wheel discs seems to have taken over.

I can remember my last everyday car that had all wheel shoe type brakes. 66 Fairlane 390 - Couldn't stop worth a damn at high speeds. Next car, 68 Torino 390, ordered front discs (I think an option at that time). Much better.

Originally Posted by 36rgtop

Ford started using disc brakes about 1965 and I doubt that they will ever go back.

[aussie merc]

not denying that discs have taken over for several reasons cost being one reliability being another since they self adjust but again if they aint maintained as needed they aint worth s##t so our friend asked what was available and what was involved. In the end its up to him to do his own sums and workout what's what only he knows what result he wants and how deep his pockets are. As we are all aware you can sink mega dollars and get little to no improvement and lets face it brakes and steering generally dont give you a second chance

[Mart]

The original question was which is better. Disk brakes are better.
Is a dual master better than a single? Yes if it is a factory designed unit with all the built in extra travel available at the pedal to make the remaining circuit still work if one should fail. You probably wouldn't have that in a conversion of an existing application, especially one with pedals that go down to the floor.
What is your intended usage? That is probably the most relevant question. Just pootling around the local area? Or high speed runs on busy highways in rush hour.
If just pootling, then it may be ok to just stick with drums.
If multiple stops from high speed are envisaged then go with a power disk conversion.
Do you have a lot of experience driving this truck? Has it actually scared you? Are the brakes in good condition? Or are you worrying about a scenario that hasn't happened and may never happen if the working envelope of the vehicle is taken into account?

If it were an open wheel hot rod and looks were paramount, then sticking with drums is normally the obvious choice. But in a fully fendered pickup then a sympathetic conversion to disks would be unnoticeable and would probably be ok if done correctly. The main thing to consider is increasing the track width. A conversion that has minimal track width increase would be better.

You have the answers to the questions and should be able to make an informed decision.

Mart.

[51 MERC-CT]

Originally Posted by aussie merc

not denying that discs have taken over for several reasons cost being one reliability being another since they self adjust

The rear Bendix drum brakes also self adjust, so in that factor they are equal.

[Robz51]

I put disc brakes on my merc and there is a noticeable difference. My reasoning is simple. Do I value my car and do i want to destroy it by slamming into a Honda that has twice the braking ability than my car has? Cars and driving habits have changed in the past 70 years.
Rob

[miniceptor86]

The brake debate! Somewhat akin to the oil debate. Dino vs synthetic vs a blend. Drums vs vs 4 wheel discs vs disc drum combination. The drum brakes on my ‘39 work fine and I won’t consider changing them. Yes it takes a heavier foot as they are not vacuum boosted. Yes I have to think ahead and prepare to stop earlier and descend hills with their limitations in mind but it’s one of the reasons I like driving it. Back to a a more involved driving experience. I like the Armstrong steering, 100 hp, three speed on the floor etc.

[1948F-1Pickup]

I read all the comments on the "greatness" of drum brakes and my conclusion
is that drum brakes have their place on museum-pieces not driven in the real world. I like nostalgia too but there's really no feeling worse than when something won't stop. I've been in that situation and I prefer to never be along for that ride.
The issue is mainly friction material-related and the fact that the main players
in that business haven't really updated their offerings in friction materials used in brake shoes since the removal of asbestos from their toolbox.
Sure, there is Porterfield. I had them on my F1 for awhile. They're ok shoes. In a loaded vehicle application, they don't provide a huge improvement in repetitive stopping that you might want to see in heavy traffic or for elevation changes.
After 25 years of being involved in the automotive aftermarket working for ACDelco, Akebono Brake Corporation and Global West, I decided to design my own setup. This, after taking a close look at Wilwood and some of the other sellers of front disc brake kits.
I didn't want ridiculously huge front discs/calipers, bearing adapters and some strange mis-mash of parts. I did want to use my original 15" rims and not affect track width.
Having already switched to a dual reservoir drum master from a '68 Mustang, I merely removed the residual valve on the rear port and bolted on my front disc, using the original drum hubs. (master cylinder reservoir capacity is enough to handle the caliper piston's displacement)

No bearing adapters, uses original wheels, track width 1/4" less than factory and great stopping.

[Ol' Ron]

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I think application of the vehicle is the issue. Having an old car with stock engine and local driving, the orginal brakes in good working order is more then adequate. However, up grading the power and speed, interstate driving, converting to a better braking system is a must.
Gramps

[tubman]

The stock brakes in my '51 are just fine, thank you, I can lock 'em up any time I want to. Since there are no mountains (an few large hills) in Minnesota, I don't see any time I would have the need to it more than once in a row. I have to believe that it now comes down to tires.

[HD]

Leave the orig. brakes alone, I have a 53 Ford F100, I restored 30 yrs ago with all NOS orig. Ford brakes and brake parts, i drive it all the time, it stops fine, I do not know why a lot of people want to change to disc or power brakes, they must have old worn out systems, I recently saw a poster someone made, It tells the true story, Henry Ford says I did not build these cars to put Chevrolet engines in.

[51 MERC-CT]

Originally Posted by HD

I recently saw a poster someone made, It tells the true story, Henry Ford says I did not build these cars to put Chevrolet engines in.

Maybe Henry said it but at one point in time Henry did use GM parts.

[Ross F-1]

Originally Posted by 51 MERC-CT

The rear Bendix drum brakes also self adjust, so in that factor they are equal.

No self-adjusters until the early '60's, I believe those are F-100 brakes.

I have totally stock type brakes on my F-1. I've driven it cross-county on interstates much of the way, in heavy traffic at times, and in the mountains where 6 - 8% downgrades are common. Several panic stops. I've never had brake fade, and as Tubman says I can lock them up if I wanted to (with 235/75 tires too). The same brakes were factory well into the 60's on F-100's that were heavier.

In my lifetime, I've had 4 M/C's fail -- every one of them was a dual. Always seems to be the front circuit that fails, and having only rear brakes may be better than none, but not much.

[51 MERC-CT]

Originally Posted by Ross F-1

No self-adjusters until the early '60's, I believe those are F-100 brakes.

My self adjusters are installed on a '51 Merc on which the brakes are virtually identical to F100 brakes.

[1948F-1Pickup]

Originally Posted by 51 MERC-CT

Maybe Henry said it but at one point in time Henry did use GM parts.

If you work on a lot of different cars and I mean actually fix stuff, not merely doing R&R "mechanical work," you rapidly find out that there's quite a bit of sharing between manufacturers.
This goes on to this day but it isn't quite as prevalent as it once was.

[waynet]

[QUOTE=Mart;2057726]The original question was which is better. Disk brakes are better.
Is a dual master better than a single? Yes if it is a factory designed unit with all the built in extra travel available at the pedal to make the remaining circuit still work if one should fail. You probably wouldn't have that in a conversion of an existing application, especially one with pedals that go down to the floor.
What is your intended usage? That is probably the most relevant question. Just pootling around the local area? Or high speed runs on busy highways in rush hour.

Great reply Mart.
Which braking system performs best is in relation to long down hill braking and urban "slam the brake on" driving. Going up hill is more controllable than going down hill. So are drum brakes reliable enough for more modern hilly road surfaces where the down hill speeds are higher than first gear gravel roads as in the early day's?

[Ross F-1]

Originally Posted by 51 MERC-CT

My self adjusters are installed on a '51 Merc on which the brakes are virtually identical to F100 brakes.

I should have said no Ford Trucks used self-adjusters until the early 60's. With modern shoes and hardware they can be added to the original brakes.

[5851a]

One thing I have noticed where disk brakes excel over drums is after driving through deep water but we don't do that anymore. If your truck is stock and well maintained and driven as intended you shouldn't have much fade problem. If you do switch make sure you know what every component is exactly for replacements.

[SoCalCoupe]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

I think application of the vehicle is the issue. Having an old car with stock engine and local driving, the orginal brakes in good working order is more then adequate. However, up grading the power and speed, interstate driving, converting to a better braking system is a must.
Gramps

You summed it up in as few words as possible. Agree with it all. One of my first hot rodding upgrades will be front discs.


Why? In some circumstances they really will shorten your stopping distance. They don't like to lock up and skid like drums. As we all know, when you skid, stopping distance increases dramatically.


Driving styles have changed. In heavy traffic, you don't get to choose your following distance. Driving on the interstate is like driving on a NASCAR track. The 3-second interval taught in drivers-ed 40 years ago, like turn signals, is viewed as a sign of weakness. As soon as you open up that interval, someone with Big Brakes and 4-piston calipers will cut in front of you and use them. I want to stop as well as they do.


Living in Southern California I pretty much have to get on the interstate to go anywhere.


Having read a lot, front disc brakes and rear drums work fine so long as you have a proportioning valve. Most of the braking power needs to go to the front wheels. Riding a bicycle with hand brakes seems to prove this out. In other words, rear disc brakes don't do a whole lot for braking performance. If you already have rear drums and convert to front discs, just get a proportioning valve.

[Bored&Stroked]

And if it hasn't been mentioned, if you're upgrading your brakes, also think about the tires on your vehicle. What type of tire and the contact pattern width (tread width) play a significant role in stopping distance and time.

While some folks like original bias ply tires for looks (stock width), I'm not one of them for a regularly driven vehicle in various traffic and weather conditions. Upgrade your tires (and potentially your rim widths) - if you're also thinking about newer/better brakes.

I remember when my parents first put Michelin Radials on our 68' Ford station wagon - was like a completely different car (handling, braking, road conditions, etc). The same is true on my 32 Cab - I went with Excelsior Radials from Coker -- expensive yes, but a much better tire than the 600x16 bias ply tires that were on the car.

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by 1948F-1Pickup

No bearing adapters, uses original wheels, track width 1/4" less than factory and great stopping.

Would be fantastic if you shared the actual part numbers and various mods you did to create your system. Obviously you mounted the rotors on the backs of your original hubs - would be cool to know what you did and how you did it.

Nice work!

[1948F-1Pickup]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

Would be fantastic if you shared the actual part numbers and various mods you did to create your system. Obviously you mounted the rotors on the backs of your original hubs - would be cool to know what you did and how you did it.

Nice work!

Thanks. I did an informal poll and received about 2% positive feedback on producing the kit, so I just did the system on my truck and that was it.

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=293628

It's merely 65/66 Mustang calipers, a pair of spacers cut with a water-jet and two caliper brackets I fabricated. The only other tricky part was latching onto the 10 wheel lug studs sourced from Dorman, because they had obsoleted them when the aftermarket switched rotor availability on that GM application to a simpler 1-piece design. (I would have had ARP make up the wheel studs for my kit, if I had produced it)