The Ford Barn

Talkwrench · 08-23-2014, 07:53 AM

Helping a mate out removing the drums on a 34 banjo diff popped the drums no probs with my hub puller , however the brakes shoes are grabbing the drum ( yes we have backed them off) the harder we pull the drum the more the shoes seem to twist and bite in .. Anyone have a trick ?

JSeery · 08-23-2014, 08:06 AM

Real pain in the a** some times. Are you wanting to save the drums? This is often caused by drums that are so worn that the ridge on the edge is catching the shoes and the shoes are not retracting enough to clear them. I have used all kind of methods to remove drums like this, but none that I would call a good method. If you can get the drum to pull out enough, get a probe between the backing plate and edge of the drum and you may be able to pry the shoes back a little. Something slightly L shaped or curved on the end. I have fought with these things for hours. If the drum is bad you can cut it off. Hope someone knows a better method or some tricks!

Mart · 08-23-2014, 08:19 AM

If you can rotate the drum while pulling it that might help. If these are mechanical, as well as the adjusters, have you backed off the actuator (No personal experience, just trying to think things through).

Like Jseery said, if you can catch sight of the shoe you can sometimes tap it back a little at a time and enable the drum to come off a tiny bit at a time.

Good luck with it.

Mart.

Charlie Stephens · 08-23-2014, 09:56 AM

Any chance there are "safety hubs" on the rear end? The current method is to use "safety clips" and they will be obvious but the old way was to use "safety hubs" which you can overlook. If there are safety hubs, two of the four bolts holding the backing plate to the axle will have been replaced with studs and the nuts will be on the outside where you can see them.

Charlie Stephens

jrhaelig · 08-23-2014, 09:56 AM

On my '39 I just unbolted the shoes at the pivot points from the outside of the backing plate.

Then they collapse into the drum and off she comes.

supereal · 08-23-2014, 02:15 PM

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It is is likely that someone, sometime, forgot to replace the backing plate clips that hold the shoes in place. This allows the shoes to tilt and grab the drum as it is pulled off. Those clips cab fall out without notice, or were just discarded as unnecessary. If you are very lucky, you may be able to work the drum off a very little bit at a time. I once worked half a day getting it done to prevent having to use a cutting torch on the drum. If you do decide to remove the lower pivots, make note of the position of the dots on the ends of the bolts to help you reassemble them without extensive work. If you need clips, C&G has them 51A-2125-B, $6 each.

scooder · 08-23-2014, 04:11 PM

He's talking about 1934 brakes, not hydraulic ones I believe.
If it is the shoes grabbing, your into the realms of tapping around with a hammer, don't beat the living out of it, just sort of hard tap. This may allow the operating business to fully back off. Wiggle, pry gently, wiggle, pry and so on. When you get to see the shoes sneaking out, tap them away from the drum, wiggle, pry, turn, pull. You gety drift, patience is the key here. Forcing stuff will get you more stucker. I've done this a few times, they will come off, patience.
good luck,
Martin.

supereal · 08-23-2014, 04:30 PM

Yeah, I missed that. I though he was referring to '39 brakes. I assume he removed the rod clevis from the brake arm on the backing plate. and the wedge on that wheel isn't rusted or stuck in place.

Talkwrench · 08-23-2014, 07:35 PM

Yes they are not juice brakes.. Well we tried all of the above , mounted a drum on backwards even a wheel too turn and pull at the same time, hammers, levers..it's free of the axle for sure and it's moving in and out a good 1/4" . It's a real pain as I want him to save the drums. He remembers when he got this diff out of a swamp back in 67 it's still in great condition for where it was found.

Charlie Stephens · 08-23-2014, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens

Any chance there are "safety hubs" on the rear end? The current method is to use "safety clips" and they will be obvious but the old way was to use "safety hubs" which you can overlook. If there are safety hubs, two of the four bolts holding the backing plate to the axle will have been replaced with studs and the nuts will be on the outside where you can see them.

Charlie Stephens

I take what I said back. If they are mechanical brakes you will not find the safety hubs or safety clips on them. I assumed the car had been converted to hydraulics and you just neglected to mention it.

Charlie Stephens

Jay in Mass · 08-23-2014, 09:38 PM

Just curious...Have you released the emergency brake?

Lawrie · 08-24-2014, 02:42 AM

Don't bugger the drums,I may pick them upon a couple of weeks,
We are at derby for a few days.
Lawrie

Mart · 08-24-2014, 03:39 AM

If it is moving in and out 1/4", when it stops on the outward pull, is it a hard stop or a soft stop? Is there "give" and a little spring back?

If there is give and spring back, it is tied up on the shoes.

If it is a solid stop it may have had safety hubs fitted.

Have you tried de-adjusting the lower pivots? I think dot to dot may be the most released position. As mentioned above, you could fully remove the lower adjuster nuts and knock the pins in. (can't do this if later style brakes are fitted).

That would give you the best chance of moving things enough to get the drums off.

You might also try taking out the wheel cylinder bolts, you never know, that might help too.

Mart.

Mart · 08-24-2014, 03:44 AM

One other thing - On my 40, one side of my rear axle had a larger than expected in and out movement. This was with everything all tightened up. Are you 100% sure you have broken the taper? It's sometimes accompanied by a big bang as it lets go.

The in and out movement may be just the natural in and out movement you can get sometimes.

Mart.

fordscript · 08-24-2014, 04:32 AM

My experience is that these drums form a 'rust ridge' on the outside edge of the drum braking surface, and does not reduce down with wear because the brake shoes do not contact with the outside edge 1/8". Even though you have the brake shoes adjusted all the way in, the shoes are still too 'big' to get past this rust ridge. I have had to resort to brute force and ignorance to pull them off, and it might mean sacrificing the old linings and maybe have to 'straighten' the brake shoes where they anchor and adjust. Good luck.

Talkwrench · 08-24-2014, 06:12 AM

I did say to Nev not to drill the drums.. I tried to call but he didn't answer, hope he didn't .. Might be a set of vented drums!
If your coming down the coast Lawrie and your interested in going to Quobba station ( just before Carnarvon) let me know.

Lawrie · 08-24-2014, 06:19 AM

Will be in touch,we are planning on leaving brome later in the week.
Lawrieo

Talkwrench · 08-25-2014, 05:21 AM

For info the backing plates where removed , the nuts had to be cut with an oxy, then some prying . Lawrie he still has the drums..

briphaeton · 09-26-2014, 12:17 PM

I had a stuck drum on my 56 Victoria and my son in law suggested a impact gun with a hammer attachment. The rapid pounding of the hammer loosened all the brake dust and the drum came off easy. First I tried a large puller that seemed to be bending everything and not removing the drum. Hope this helps.
Brian

Bored&Stroked · 09-29-2014, 08:34 PM

First I'd take the mechanical rods off - as the adjustment requires that they be somewhat engaged to work well. Make dang sure that you've worked the adjusters such that the square adjuster post is ALL the way OUT! It is easy to not know which way to go - just make sure you are threading them out. Once you have them all the way out, I'd bet the drums come right off. I've only really had issues when the shoes were rusted to the drums. If you can rotate the drum, then you should be able to get the drums off.

08-23-2014, 07:53 AM	#1
Talkwrench Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 2,687	34 drum removal Helping a mate out removing the drums on a 34 banjo diff popped the drums no probs with my hub puller , however the brakes shoes are grabbing the drum ( yes we have backed them off) the harder we pull the drum the more the shoes seem to twist and bite in .. Anyone have a trick ? __________________ *"Came too close to dying to stop living now!"*

08-23-2014, 08:06 AM	#2
JSeery Member Emeritus Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 16,132	Re: 34 drum removal Real pain in the a** some times. Are you wanting to save the drums? This is often caused by drums that are so worn that the ridge on the edge is catching the shoes and the shoes are not retracting enough to clear them. I have used all kind of methods to remove drums like this, but none that I would call a good method. If you can get the drum to pull out enough, get a probe between the backing plate and edge of the drum and you may be able to pry the shoes back a little. Something slightly L shaped or curved on the end. I have fought with these things for hours. If the drum is bad you can cut it off. Hope someone knows a better method or some tricks!

08-23-2014, 08:19 AM	#3
Mart Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Solihull, England. Posts: 8,754	Re: 34 drum removal If you can rotate the drum while pulling it that might help. If these are mechanical, as well as the adjusters, have you backed off the actuator (No personal experience, just trying to think things through). Like Jseery said, if you can catch sight of the shoe you can sometimes tap it back a little at a time and enable the drum to come off a tiny bit at a time. Good luck with it. Mart.

08-23-2014, 09:56 AM	#4
Charlie Stephens Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Southern California Posts: 7,032	Re: 34 drum removal Any chance there are "safety hubs" on the rear end? The current method is to use "safety clips" and they will be obvious but the old way was to use "safety hubs" which you can overlook. If there are safety hubs, two of the four bolts holding the backing plate to the axle will have been replaced with studs and the nuts will be on the outside where you can see them. Charlie Stephens

08-23-2014, 09:56 AM	#5
jrhaelig Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Bridgewater, New Jersey Posts: 264	Re: 34 drum removal On my '39 I just unbolted the shoes at the pivot points from the outside of the backing plate. Then they collapse into the drum and off she comes. __________________ John Haelig Bridgewater, NJ 1939 Ford Pickup 1963 Lincoln Continental 1939 Buick

08-23-2014, 02:15 PM	#6
supereal Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Iowa Posts: 1,634	Re: 34 drum removal Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) It is is likely that someone, sometime, forgot to replace the backing plate clips that hold the shoes in place. This allows the shoes to tilt and grab the drum as it is pulled off. Those clips cab fall out without notice, or were just discarded as unnecessary. If you are very lucky, you may be able to work the drum off a very little bit at a time. I once worked half a day getting it done to prevent having to use a cutting torch on the drum. If you do decide to remove the lower pivots, make note of the position of the dots on the ends of the bolts to help you reassemble them without extensive work. If you need clips, C&G has them 51A-2125-B, $6 each.

08-23-2014, 04:11 PM	#7
scooder Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,593	Re: 34 drum removal He's talking about 1934 brakes, not hydraulic ones I believe. If it is the shoes grabbing, your into the realms of tapping around with a hammer, don't beat the living out of it, just sort of hard tap. This may allow the operating business to fully back off. Wiggle, pry gently, wiggle, pry and so on. When you get to see the shoes sneaking out, tap them away from the drum, wiggle, pry, turn, pull. You gety drift, patience is the key here. Forcing stuff will get you more stucker. I've done this a few times, they will come off, patience. good luck, Martin.

08-23-2014, 04:30 PM	#8
supereal Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Iowa Posts: 1,634	Re: 34 drum removal Yeah, I missed that. I though he was referring to '39 brakes. I assume he removed the rod clevis from the brake arm on the backing plate. and the wedge on that wheel isn't rusted or stuck in place.

08-23-2014, 07:35 PM	#9
Talkwrench Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 2,687	Re: 34 drum removal Yes they are not juice brakes.. Well we tried all of the above , mounted a drum on backwards even a wheel too turn and pull at the same time, hammers, levers..it's free of the axle for sure and it's moving in and out a good 1/4" . It's a real pain as I want him to save the drums. He remembers when he got this diff out of a swamp back in 67 it's still in great condition for where it was found. __________________ *"Came too close to dying to stop living now!"*

08-23-2014, 09:38 PM	#11
Jay in Mass Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mass. Posts: 379	Re: 34 drum removal Just curious...Have you released the emergency brake?

08-24-2014, 02:42 AM	#12
Lawrie Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Qld, Australia Posts: 4,215	Re: 34 drum removal Don't bugger the drums,I may pick them upon a couple of weeks, We are at derby for a few days. Lawrie

08-24-2014, 03:39 AM	#13
Mart Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Solihull, England. Posts: 8,754	Re: 34 drum removal If it is moving in and out 1/4", when it stops on the outward pull, is it a hard stop or a soft stop? Is there "give" and a little spring back? If there is give and spring back, it is tied up on the shoes. If it is a solid stop it may have had safety hubs fitted. Have you tried de-adjusting the lower pivots? I think dot to dot may be the most released position. As mentioned above, you could fully remove the lower adjuster nuts and knock the pins in. (can't do this if later style brakes are fitted). That would give you the best chance of moving things enough to get the drums off. You might also try taking out the wheel cylinder bolts, you never know, that might help too. Mart.

08-24-2014, 03:44 AM	#14
Mart Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Solihull, England. Posts: 8,754	Re: 34 drum removal One other thing - On my 40, one side of my rear axle had a larger than expected in and out movement. This was with everything all tightened up. Are you 100% sure you have broken the taper? It's sometimes accompanied by a big bang as it lets go. The in and out movement may be just the natural in and out movement you can get sometimes. Mart.

08-24-2014, 04:32 AM	#15
fordscript Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Oamaru, New Zealand Posts: 419	Re: 34 drum removal My experience is that these drums form a 'rust ridge' on the outside edge of the drum braking surface, and does not reduce down with wear because the brake shoes do not contact with the outside edge 1/8". Even though you have the brake shoes adjusted all the way in, the shoes are still too 'big' to get past this rust ridge. I have had to resort to brute force and ignorance to pull them off, and it might mean sacrificing the old linings and maybe have to 'straighten' the brake shoes where they anchor and adjust. Good luck.

08-24-2014, 06:12 AM	#16
Talkwrench Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 2,687	Re: 34 drum removal I did say to Nev not to drill the drums.. I tried to call but he didn't answer, hope he didn't .. Might be a set of vented drums! If your coming down the coast Lawrie and your interested in going to Quobba station ( just before Carnarvon) let me know. __________________ *"Came too close to dying to stop living now!"*

08-24-2014, 06:19 AM	#17
Lawrie Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Qld, Australia Posts: 4,215	Re: 34 drum removal Will be in touch,we are planning on leaving brome later in the week. Lawrieo

08-25-2014, 05:21 AM	#18
Talkwrench Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 2,687	Re: 34 drum removal For info the backing plates where removed , the nuts had to be cut with an oxy, then some prying . Lawrie he still has the drums.. __________________ *"Came too close to dying to stop living now!"*

09-26-2014, 12:17 PM	#19
briphaeton Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 241	Re: 34 drum removal I had a stuck drum on my 56 Victoria and my son in law suggested a impact gun with a hammer attachment. The rapid pounding of the hammer loosened all the brake dust and the drum came off easy. First I tried a large puller that seemed to be bending everything and not removing the drum. Hope this helps. Brian

09-29-2014, 08:34 PM	#20
Bored&Stroked Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 5,067	Re: 34 drum removal First I'd take the mechanical rods off - as the adjustment requires that they be somewhat engaged to work well. Make dang sure that you've worked the adjusters such that the square adjuster post is ALL the way OUT! It is easy to not know which way to go - just make sure you are threading them out. Once you have them all the way out, I'd bet the drums come right off. I've only really had issues when the shoes were rusted to the drums. If you can rotate the drum, then you should be able to get the drums off.