Water vs Antifreeze

[Duffy1]

Which cools better . Water with rust inhibitor or 50/50 antifreeze . What is the pros and cons if you use water/rust prohibitor in the summer in Texas and have a BW pressurized radiator and you run a 4 lb cap.

Thanks

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

This has been argued, mulled over, & bisected SO MANY times. I, personally, believe that quality coolant IS the best choice overall, install it, and you're set for all seasons. Rust preventative & water pump seal lubricant is included at no extra cost! It is recommended for ALL modern water cooled engines as for as I know. By the way, Texas ain't the only HOT spot, we were a toasty 109 degrees a few days ago! (But some will say, "What does Ole' Bill know????) Bill W.

[Duffy1]

Bill;

I was told that antifreeze will cause seepage when using a copper head gasket .My copper head gasket started seeping so I thought about just running water and preston rust inhibitor and see if the seepage stops .

Thanks

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by Duffy1

Bill;

I was told that antifreeze will cause seepage when using a copper head gasket .My copper head gasket started seeping so I thought about just running water and preston rust inhibitor and see if the seepage stops .

Thanks

Duffy,
My thoughts: Water will seep easier than coolant 'cause it's viscosity is LESS than coolant. Water just evaporates & doesn't leave a green "CALLING CARD." I always run Bars-Leaks for a week before puttin' in coolant for those unknown seepages that might show up in 80 year old iron. I add 1/2 bottle of Bars-Leaks after draining first water & installing coolant. Bars-Leaks is very safe & won't plug up stuff! (CHIEF said so!) Bill W.

[Mike V. Florida]

The only reason I use water and rust preventative is because I have read and seen some antifreeze foam up due to the impellers in the water pump. I'm not saying that all antifreeze foams or that all water pump impellers cause the problem but since it doesn't often freeze in South Florida, I decided to use just distilled water and the anti-rust.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

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Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

The only reason I use water and rust preventative is because I have read and seen some antifreeze foam up due to the impellers in the water pump. I'm not saying that all antifreeze foams or that all water pump impellers cause the problem but since it doesn't often freeze in South Florida, I decided to use just distilled water and the anti-rust.

Brother Mike,
I'm not adimate about what I do, If some have a way that works well for them, stick with it! Bill W.

[Duffy1]

Thanks for the input fellows.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

Brother Mike,
I'm not adimate about what I do, If some have a way that works well for them, stick with it! Bill W.

Exactly, just like oil, it all works pick what you want.

[dumb person]

If it helps you at all, using plain water might cause a slight amount of rust to stop leaks. Found this out with a modern car with a cracked cylinder head (into the cylinders ect.) just let it leak meaning it fix it "some day". Slowly it stopped leaking until it was "fixed". Put antifreeze in it and it was fine (so far). Not good for the water pump but that was 2% of the price of repairing the head.

[brokenspoke]

H and H built my engine and they said not to use antifreeze

[mkmskm]

For me you're asking the wrong question. My car is stored in an unheated garage so I will NEVER put plain water in it as I don't want to get caught by a freeze or hassle with changing the coolant that often. I know several guys who have ruined engines with water in them because they forgot and it froze. I've always run 50:50 in all my old vehicles and it works great plus I don't ever have to worry about them. Remember when the Model A came out they use alcohol based "Antifreezes" that you removed in the summer and when ethylene glycol came out in the 30s it was advertised as "permanent antifreeze".

[28ACoupe]

Personally, I don't run either water or anti-freeze. I run Evans Cooling products exclusively. I ran into this company a few years ago and can tell you that their stuff really works. My cousin runs a 650hp SB Chev powered SS Impala on the streets of Los Angeles when it gets to triple digits every year with zero problems. I have ran it in my Model A as well with zero issues as well.

It is not cheap, but nothing worth while ever is.

[Duffy1]

What happens to your paint job when you spring a leak and evans sprays all over you car .Is Evans paint friendly ?

[allen]

Originally Posted by Duffy1

What happens to your paint job when you spring a leak and evans sprays all over you car .Is Evans paint friendly ?

Not sure about 4lbs pounds of pressure on the system, I run as Henry did 0 and some of my A's will seep a little after a rebuild or head gasket. But not to worry found the best way to cure this is to just run it a while never had one leak long enough to show a leak line as pointed out rust will develop and seal the system. We run monthly rides over a 120 miles in weather at or near a 100 down in Mississippi never a problem

[28ACoupe]

Duffy - Good question. I did have some spill while I was filling the radiator and no effect on the painted goods then. But, I need to call the company Monday for an order so I will ask them specifically about this.

Of course, there is always the idea that one should properly maintain their cars so the leak/spray thing doesn't happen.

[Tom Wesenberg]

"Of course, there is always the idea that one should properly maintain their cars so the leak/spray thing doesn't happen. "

LOL, I was thinking the same thing.
BTW, was your avatar in a garage fire? And what became of the poor thing?

[Hicktick]

The problem with running water is rust . Its hard to get enough rust inhibitor in your system. If you drive your car a lot , no problem .

If your car sits for any length of time rust will form and clog your new radiator and your block. These blocks have had enough rusting in 80 years.

In my opinion good antifreeze will be your friend and it too needs to be changed every 2 years.

Good antifreeze was not available for the A , but now you have a choice .
Dont ruin a good clean cooling system with water , radiator work is not cheap and a stopped up block will kill your cylinders .

[28ACoupe]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

"Of course, there is always the idea that one should properly maintain their cars so the leak/spray thing doesn't happen. "

LOL, I was thinking the same thing.
BTW, was your avatar in a garage fire? And what became of the poor thing?

Yup. The whole shop went up and there was literally nothing left. I still have the car and am going down to dad's place July 1 to start in on restoration #2. You can follow the process on a website I am building for it at http://www.28modela.com. Note: there is nothing on the site yet. But, I will be posting pics and articles on it daily once I get back to the car.

[Duffy1]

I drained the antifreeze out today and put in distilled water and bars leak . Tomorrow I plan on putting in Preston Super Inihibitor assuming no bad feed back from another post asking for folks experience with this product . HICKTICK ; Can you expand on your statement "hard to get enough rust inhibitor in your system " . Preston says to use one bottle of their Super Rust Inhibitor for a 12quart system .
PS .It did appear, per my temp gauge, that my car was running about 10 degrees cooler with water only .

Thanks again folks .

[Hicktick]

Duffy , cast iron will rust before your eyes . This rust inhibitor is just what it says , an inhibitor not a rust preventor .

Run the water and inhibitor for a month and drain it in a clean bucket .
If it looks good to you pour it back in and never look back , but if it looks like muddy water well thats your block rusting .

If your car is overheating changing fluids wont fix it .



Just what Im tole ,,,,,Pops

[pat in Santa Cruz]

some time ago I read (either here or on ahooga) that modern rust inhibitors had been environmentalized, and were no longer very effective. Subsequent use by myself demonstrated to me that they no longer prevented rust very well. I started to use 50/50 Propylene Glycol ( e.g. Sierra and others). While Ethylene Glycol is a bit cheaper, its poisonous to pets (who like the flavor), to fish and children who might drink it. It is sweet, and looks like lime Kool Aid. . Propylene is non toxic, and does not foam in an unpressurized system. I have had no more rust issues since.

Water cools better, but any A with a good radiator should cool easily in any heat conditions. If yours is too hot, there is a problem somewhere. A's originally were very cool running engines.

[A-Jay]

Another option here is Water Wetter by RED LINE its not an antifreeze but a rust inhibitor and it also lubricates. One bottle is plenty for a 2 1/2 -3 gallon cooling system. Its a little pricey at 9-10 dollars and is available at most auto parts places maybe even Walmart. Check out the DEMO bottom left of the link.

http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=74&pcid=10

[Duffy1]

Hicktick ;

I do not have an over heating problem . I have a copper head gasket that is seeping between # 3 & # 4 cylinder next to the starter . One of the gurus in our model A club said antifreeze will cause copper head gaskets to seep . I have been running 50/50 mix antifreeze . When I drained out after one month it was very rusty . I am beginning to wonder if you can slow down this rust .
Thanks the response.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by Duffy1

Hicktick ;

I do not have an over heating problem . I have a copper head gasket that is seeping between # 3 & # 4 cylinder next to the starter . One of the gurus in our model A club said antifreeze will cause copper head gaskets to seep . I have been running 50/50 mix antifreeze . When I drained out after one month it was very rusty . I am beginning to wonder if you can slow down this rust .
Thanks the response.

Have you re-torqued the head bolts SEVERAL times, COLD? They do "settle" some after running.
Bill W.

[blgitn]

[QUOTE=A-Jay;448298]Another option here is Water Wetter by RED LINE its not an antifreeze but a rust inhibitor and it also lubricates. One bottle is plenty for a 2 1/2 -3 gallon cooling system. Its a little pricey at 9-10 dollars and is available at most auto parts places maybe even Walmart. Check out the DEMO bottom left of the link.

I can vouch for water wetter; my Hudson runs hot on ethanol-laced fuel and water wetter helps quite a bit. I haven't had to use it in my Fords tho. I run thermostats and good radiators.

R/ Roger.

[steve s]

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[QUOTE=blgitn;448622]

Originally Posted by A-Jay

Another option here is Water Wetter by RED LINE its not an antifreeze but a rust inhibitor and it also lubricates. One bottle is plenty for a 2 1/2 -3 gallon cooling system. Its a little pricey at 9-10 dollars and is available at most auto parts places maybe even Walmart. Check out the DEMO bottom left of the link.

I can vouch for water wetter; my Hudson runs hot on ethanol-laced fuel and water wetter helps quite a bit. I haven't had to use it in my Fords tho. I run thermostats and good radiators.

R/ Roger.

Hey, Roger. I love that photo in your avatar. I saw it many years ago in presentation Charlie Yapp made, and haven't ever seen it anywhere else. I've tried to talk him into using it on his Secrets of Speed t-shirts, etc. Could you post a full size copy?

Thanks!

Steve

[pat in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by Duffy1

Hicktick ;

I do not have an over heating problem . I have a copper head gasket that is seeping between # 3 & # 4 cylinder next to the starter . One of the gurus in our model A club said antifreeze will cause copper head gaskets to seep . I have been running 50/50 mix antifreeze . When I drained out after one month it was very rusty . I am beginning to wonder if you can slow down this rust .
Thanks the response.

perhaps instead of rusting with 50/50 antifreeze, it has so much old rust already in the block and radiator that it contaminates the mix. I had problems with water wetter rusting after a few months. I don't think the inhibitors in it last long. But with 50/50, its been clean over a year now. Did you try flushing the block and radiator till the water runs clean before you put 50/50 in it?

[Chris Haynes]

Originally Posted by brokenspoke

H and H built my engine and they said not to use antifreeze

Hatchet & Hammer?

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by brokenspoke

H and H built my engine and they said not to use antifreeze

Forever or just for break in? Some rebuilders (I don't know about H&H) put in Bars stop leak just in case. I've read that some antifreeze will eat the babbit so during break in and with bars stop leak in the system one runs water only to seal the system and then switch over to the soultion of your choice.

[blgitn]

[QUOTE=steve s;448702][QUOTE=blgitn;448622]

Hey, Roger. I love that photo in your avatar. I saw it many years ago in presentation Charlie Yapp made, and haven't ever seen it anywhere else. I've tried to talk him into using it on his Secrets of Speed t-shirts, etc. Could you post a full size copy?

Thanks!

Steve



Steve,

Sadly, I don't have one. I saved it from another avatar a while back. Does anybody out there have a larger copy? I'd love make a print to hang in the shop.

R/ Roger.

[Clydes 31 P/U]

I use this flusher every 2 yrs. 50lbs air through the block 5lbs through the radiator in each direction til the water runs clear, the short bursts of air and water mix really losen up the crud. Personally I use 50/50 anti freeze in mine

[ronn]

Fact-water is thicker then antifreeze.
Had 2 different cars with head leaks with anitfreeze. A model A and a 51 chevy.
Removed the antifreeze and put in pure water-no more leaks. Of course in NJ we must have
antifreeze in the winter or drain our systems out for the season.

[jrapose]

To prevent rust in water you use soluable oil...same thing as machinests use in cooling machine tools (lathe cooling water) you can buy it in gallons, but you only need a cup in the radiator of water...will be turn the water white, works really well but does not prevent freezing....also will not damage paint if blown out or spilled.
Sold in small quanitys as water pump lube..but inexpensive as machinests lube.

To seal a block you use sodium silicate...(water glass) a product used by truckers to seal cracked blocks, also egg farmers to seal egg shells.... works much better than Bars Leak..

Joel Rapose
45 years driving Model A fords..
One has a 65hp diesel mounted to stock running gear...45mpg. same torque as stock B motor.
Disk brakes on front of that car... using stock 19" wheels.. not noticable and dies not change width....but lots of machine work required. Using deep offset rotor hats to center the rotor directly in line with spindle...no pull... ( Sazuki Samari)
Professor of Technology Oxnard College (retired)

[Chris Haynes]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

Forever or just for break in? Some rebuilders (I don't know about H&H) put in Bars stop leak just in case. I've read that some antifreeze will eat the babbit so during break in and with bars stop leak in the system one runs water only to seal the system and then switch over to the soultion of your choice.

How does antifreeze get on the babbit?
I have used Sierra brand antifreeze and it doesn't foam.

[Milton]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

I've read that some antifreeze will eat the babbit

And that just may be the reason H&H doesn't want antifreeze in their lead/solder repaired cracked blocks.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Chris Haynes

How does antifreeze get on the babbit?
I have used Sierra brand antifreeze and it doesn't foam.

If the head gasket leaks then the coolant leaks past the rings and into the dip tray to be picked up by the rod scoops. A guy in our club lost his new babbit job when he removed the nut holding the popout cable and left it off overnight.

[rodnut1]

Yes, plain water definately cools better than an antifreeze mix. Also, the water used in a cooling system should be reverse-osmosis distilled, or use 'drinking water' found in the jugs at your local store. DO NOT use steam distilled water as it contains no minerals and will erode your cooling system! To the water should be added a quality corrosion inhibitor in proper amounts. I use NoRosion HyperCool, good stuff. Corrosion ihibitor, a water wetter and water pump lubricant all in one bottle. Of course if you're going to be driving in wind-chill or freezing weather, antifreeze will be required. But not many A owners really like motoring around in the freezing cold..

[marc hildebrant]

O.K., please explain why water with no minerals will rust ?

Marc

[steve s]

Originally Posted by rodnut1

... Also, the water used in a cooling system should be reverse-osmosis distilled, or use 'drinking water' found in the jugs at your local store. DO NOT use steam distilled water as it contains no minerals and will erode your cooling system! .....

Originally Posted by marc hildebrant

O.K., please explain why water with no minerals will rust ?

Marc

I too would like to see the data, or even a coherent theory, supporting this. I suspect it's one of those urban legends that will never be extinguished. Based on all of the chemistry I am aware of, it makes no sense; corrosion is an electrolytic process, and any added ions in the water can only aggravate the condition, it seems to me. Antifreeze manufacturers recommend using distilled water for diluting their product--some sort of conspiracy, I suppose?

Steve

[n4yhd1]

What specific Bar's Leak product are you using?

[redmodelt]

Sorry but you are asking a new question on a postings that was last posted on 9 years ago. If you are asking Mike, he has not been here in about 10 day. I suggest you start a new topic/post. Maybe give a little back story why you are asking.

[Jacksonlll]

My advice to all you people who run water in the summertime; we are all getting a little older each year and it just takes one time to forget, because you forget, or you have some illness that takes your mind off of getting the water out in time. Your family will not know that there is a problem until they see it in the spring. That happened in our club, and a very good engine was lost. So easy to forget.

[Harpkatt]

Originally Posted by Jacksonlll

My advice to all you people who run water in the summertime; we are all getting a little older each year and it just takes one time to forget, because you forget, or you have some illness that takes your mind off of getting the water out in time. Your family will not know that there is a problem until they see it in the spring. That happened in our club, and a very good engine was lost. So easy to forget.

This is very valuable advice. Can happen to the young among us as well.

I'm sure many engine have met there fate in the far from normal Freeze in texas

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by Jacksonlll

My advice to all you people who run water in the summertime; we are all getting a little older each year and it just takes one time to forget, because you forget, or you have some illness that takes your mind off of getting the water out in time. Your family will not know that there is a problem until they see it in the spring. That happened in our club, and a very good engine was lost. So easy to forget.

Even young people can gorget... with terrible results !
Burned tops out of two pistons. Blk. froze solid. Middle of morning. Had to run it. Get home or freeze.
Bad behavior... not putting in antifreeze , cold clime or not !

[nkaminar]

Duffy,

The last time you re torqued the head nuts did they move very much? When was that?

The Ford recommendation is to re torque the head nuts once a year after they are re torqued several times when the car is new or a new head gasket is installed.

[redmodelt]

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The last time Duffy had even been on Fordbarn was back in 2015 and this posting started in 2012.

[McMimmcs]

Originally Posted by Jacksonlll

My advice to all you people who run water in the summertime; we are all getting a little older each year and it just takes one time to forget, because you forget, or you have some illness that takes your mind off of getting the water out in time. Your family will not know that there is a problem until they see it in the spring. That happened in our club, and a very good engine was lost. So easy to forget.

I couldn’t agree more, The master has spoken !

[JoeCB]

What jrapose said ... water and soluble oil. I have been doing it for 50 years. no problems, no rust.
Drain in the fall and refill in spring. It's available as concentrated "soluble oil" from NAPA in half gallon jugs.

Joe B

[dpson]

Wonder how many cracked blocks will result from the recent cold spell down south for those not using antifreeze?

[jerbo]

hi guys, slightly off subject, but close enough to ask for help on this. i have a car thats
been sitting forf 15 years with the water left in it. just how can i clean out the engine
and avoid getting all the rusty stuff out and not into the radiator ?? i have not started this one for years..but im back on it now.
tks, jerbo

[katy]

Originally Posted by jerbo

just how can i clean out the engine
and avoid getting all the rusty stuff out and not into the radiator ??

First remove the rad hoses.

[redmodelt]

Start by starting a new topic/post so your question does not get lost in a non related subject. Also, do a search using Fordbarn and what you are looking for, for example; "Fordbarn;flushing motor" T, A or V8 all are about the same.

[Gene F]

I have a fresh engine, and my rebuilder speciafically asked me to use water during the break-in period. I have a Brumfreild 6.5:1, with the FelPro gasket.

Normally I use water, with reust inhibitor / water pump lubricant. I use it all year, and at the ends of the season I have a pan I use which recaptures it, and I just pour the same solution back in.

I formerly used antifreeze, but it does foam in an open system. I tried Sierra, but you need a special tester for that stuff... I'm always paranoid about the concentration falling, and having a little disaster.

[SteveB31]

As an engine builder, all I can say is running water ruins a lot of engines. Rust, rust, rust, cracks, cracks, cracks. I have scrapped just in the last 5 years over 300 Model A blocks that had rusted thru or severally freeze cracked water jackets. Their is no logical reason it run water in any Model A engine, or any other engine in my opinion.

[jerbo]

a little bit off subject, anyone have any suggestions about how to clean out the rust & crud inside the engine water jackets with out running it through the radiator ? i'd hate to see that stuff get stuck in the radiator...and what to use to clean out the rust and build up?? tks, jerbo

[alexiskai]

Originally Posted by Gene F

I have a fresh engine, and my rebuilder speciafically asked me to use water during the break-in period. I have a Brumfreild 6.5:1, with the FelPro gasket.

I've seen recommendations to run with 100% water for gasket break-in, but only for the initial 3 re-torques, which can and should usually be completed in less than a day. This is what Yapp recommends at Secrets of Speed. I believe the reasoning is that at the very beginning, when the head is at its loosest, some small leakage from the cooling system is common, and you would prefer that leakage to be pure water, which will boil off and leave no contamination behind. You would add the antifreeze or anticorrosion agent once you were confident that the head had properly sealed.

Down here in NC I run 2 gal H2O and 1 gal antifreeze all year. Cheaper to buy, easy to mix, and protects down to 0° F, which is more than enough even if I top up with water during the year.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by SteveB31

As an engine builder, all I can say is running water ruins a lot of engines. Rust, rust, rust, cracks, cracks, cracks. I have scrapped just in the last 5 years over 300 Model A blocks that had rusted thru or severally freeze cracked water jackets. Their is no logical reason it run water in any Model A engine, or any other engine in my opinion.

AMEN TO THAT !

How’s that saying go....’you can lead them to water... they will put it in their engines’.

[redmodelt]

jerbo Please read my #52 post.

[Dino's A]

Opinions are just opinions. Want a true story? My dads Model A Tudor sat for about 15 years in his garage. I took the radiator out to start the process of starting the car after all that time. He had distilled water with the rust inhibitor (soluble oil).

Radiator shop called me shortly and said, "your radiator needs nothing, it's clean".
They were right. Car runs cool and never gets too hot at all.
True story. To this day, many in the club I'm in, still use this stuff.

[vangogh]

Hello Barners,


I use "Sierra" antifreeze in my "Vicky" It is the best of it's type to be kind to the radiator. Works well.

[Ivan in southeast va.]

Prestone LowTox

[darrylkmc]

Water cools better and the Model A engine enjoys its self best when using it, all things being equal, from my experience.

The down side, if you fail to use a Rust Inhibitor, sold as Anti-Rust and Water Pump Lube, ie. Water Soluble Oil, then of course the iron wetted parts will begin to rust.

And most importantly, if the temperature drops below freezing the water will freeze and expand and parts will begin to split open, happens to carburetors and water separators as well.

Anti-freeze offers the best of both worlds, but seems to find leaks and tastes and smells of that sick sweet odor, which I would rather avoid myself.

Around here we mix 70/30 for 60 below f, but even the other way around, antifreeze is only likely to become slushy but won't freeze.

Darryl in Fairbanks

[Model A Ron]

I would go with coolant year round for all the same reasons.

Ron