Another V8 Identification Thread (1940 Ford)

[WarbirdPhotog]

Hey everyone, so I've been reading all sorts of threads on how to identify V-8 engines, and I'm still coming up with a blank on the one in my 1940 Ford. After spending the better part of a half-hour hunting for any identification, I'm coming up empty.

Here's what I know:
- There are 24 studs on each head
- Water pumps are in the block
- Petcocks are a 45 degree angle
- There is NO 59 on the bell housing
- There are no stampings anywhere on the block that I could find
- The passenger side head has:

A
FORD
56
- The Driver's side head only has an A
- The rear of the block front plate has 22 on the mount arm on the driver's side, and 78-8505 with an 8- on top of that on the passenger side.

Photos:

Passenger side head with A, FORD, and 56:


Closer on the FORD and 56:


The driver's side head with only an A:


45 Degree drain plug (I think that's it correct?):


Driver's side block front plate mount arm with a 22:


Passenger side block front plate mount arm with 78-8505 and 8- (all hard to see in this photo):


No 59 that I can see, even looking up behind the firewall:


Transmission and bell housing from inside the vehicle:


No date casting on the rear passenger top corner:


The distributor is mounted on the front:


Two shots of the distributor from the sides:



Driver's side front:


Passenger's side front:


Looking at the bottom:

[corvette8n]

Looks like motor in my ‘41 which I know is not original, just a run of the mill 221 made from 1938-1942. I have 2 bare blocks and 1 extra complete motor with little or no markings on them.

[Kube]

Warbird,
From what I can tell it appears to be a '38 - 40 block. Heads and water pumps can and most likely were changed in the past and as such, I tend not to use them as identifiers.
Your pumps appear to be proper '40 bodies. However, I can't quite tell if the pulleys are 1940. Regardless, and to reiterate, these can't be used to ID a block.
In 1941 the design of the block changed a bit. I can't quite tell from your photos, but it appears as if the surface is flat on the block directly below the valve chamber cover (intake manifold for you non-flathead guys). In 1941 that area appeared to be "raised", a certain indication of post 1940.
Where the exhaust manifolds bolt to the block: The block casting adjacent should "stick out" about 3/16". If it is flush in that area, the block is post 1940.
Your block appears to pass the so called "pencil test". That indicates '38 - '41.
By the way, that "56" on one cylinder head is nothing but a casting number. It identified the casting core.
I have attached a few photos that should help you.
One clearly depicts the flat surface area below the valve chamber cover.
One photo indicates the "pencil test".
One photo, perhaps two, should help you visualize the raised area at the block adjacent to the exhaust manifold(s).

[glennpm]

Have you looked at this?


https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/985i6...ah6sxw1jq&dl=0

[WarbirdPhotog]

Originally Posted by corvette8n

Looks like motor in my ‘41 which I know is not original, just a run of the mill 221 made from 1938-1942. I have 2 bare blocks and 1 extra complete motor with little or no markings on them.

It's frustrating for sure with no markings!

Originally Posted by glennpm

Have you looked at this?
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/985i6...ah6sxw1jq&dl=0

Downloaded, that's some great info! And no, I hadn't seen that yet! Thank you

[WarbirdPhotog]

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Originally Posted by Kube

Warbird,
From what I can tell it appears to be a '38 - 40 block. Heads and water pumps can and most likely were changed in the past and as such, I tend not to use them as identifiers.
Your pumps appear to be proper '40 bodies. However, I can't quite tell if the pulleys are 1940. Regardless, and to reiterate, these can't be used to ID a block.
In 1941 the design of the block changed a bit. I can't quite tell from your photos, but it appears as if the surface is flat on the block directly below the valve chamber cover (intake manifold for you non-flathead guys). In 1941 that area appeared to be "raised", a certain indication of post 1940.
Where the exhaust manifolds bolt to the block: The block casting adjacent should "stick out" about 3/16". If it is flush in that area, the block is post 1940.
Your block appears to pass the so called "pencil test". That indicates '38 - '41.
By the way, that "56" on one cylinder head is nothing but a casting number. It identified the casting core.
I have attached a few photos that should help you.
One clearly depicts the flat surface area below the valve chamber cover.
One photo indicates the "pencil test".
One photo, perhaps two, should help you visualize the raised area at the block adjacent to the exhaust manifold(s).

Hey Mike! (this is Britt, who's been emailing you), Thanks for the information. I tried the pencil test, but the vehicle is on an inclined driveway, so it won't stay. If it was level, it would indeed stay there:



I did look for the 81A casting on the sides of the heads, but I couldn't see it there. Eventually, I'm going to remove the fenders and radiator so I can get in there and clean everything up, repaint the engine, and check it out for more markings.

As far as the raised/flat area, here's a few more photos of the engine:

[Ken/Alabama]

Shouldn’t a correct 40 block have the humps in the block where the core plugs are ? I’m not seeing them on your block.

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by Ken/Alabama

Shouldn’t a correct 40 block have the humps in the block where the core plugs are ? I’m not seeing them on your block.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Ken/Alabama

Shouldn’t a correct 40 block have the humps in the block where the core plugs are ? I’m not seeing them on your block.

Yes, you are correct. Good call.

[WarbirdPhotog]

Originally Posted by Kube

Yes, you are correct. Good call.

So what would that make this engine? From what I was told when I originally bought it, the engine was never replaced. But you never really know.

[Ken/Alabama]

41-42

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Ken/Alabama

41-42

Not '41 or '42 as they had the so called "raised deck" below the valve chamber cover.
My money is on this being a '40 block. Perhaps better photos from the owner in the oil pan rail area?

[Ken/Alabama]

Originally Posted by Kube

Not '41 or '42 as they had the so called "raised deck" below the valve chamber cover.
My money is on this being a '40 block. Perhaps better photos from the owner in the oil pan rail area?

Post #6 shows a pretty good shot of the side of the block. I can see the gasket protruding where the bumps should be but I’m not seeing the bumps. I would like to see the intake surface. If it doesn’t have the raised portion it would definitely be a first for me.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Ken/Alabama

Post #6 shows a pretty good shot of the side of the block. I can see the gasket protruding where the bumps should be but I’m not seeing the bumps. I would like to see the intake surface. If it doesn’t have the raised portion it would definitely be a first for me.

I'm right there with you Ken.
The "raised deck" blocks began in August 1940. This one in question, at least with my poor eyes, appears to be a flat deck.

[WarbirdPhotog]

Originally Posted by Kube

Not '41 or '42 as they had the so called "raised deck" below the valve chamber cover.
My money is on this being a '40 block. Perhaps better photos from the owner in the oil pan rail area?

Where about are you talking? I can get some photos tomorrow when it's light out. I'm used to WW2 Jeep engines, so these V8s are a bit new for me.

[Ken/Alabama]

Originally Posted by WarbirdPhotog

Where about are you talking? I can get some photos tomorrow when it's light out. I'm used to WW2 Jeep engines, so these V8s are a bit new for me.

Take some pictures around the intake manifold where it meets the block . I suspect that the block is raised just a bit under the intake gasket.

[ford38v8]

Originally Posted by Ken/Alabama

Take some pictures around the intake manifold where it meets the block . I suspect that the block is raised just a bit under the intake gasket.

The "raised deck" is a semantics issue. The deck is at the same height as any other flathead deck, it's only the rough casting that was adjusted a bit thinner at the area surrounding the deck. There have been heated arguments in years past as to the blocks this feature applied to and which it did not apply to. Some say it was Mercury only, some say not. The rule of thumb when talking about Ford is it's usually safe to say that when it comes to Ford, never say never and never say always.

[glennpm]

Originally Posted by ford38v8

The "raised deck" is a semantics issue. The deck is at the same height as any other flathead deck, it's only the rough casting that was adjusted a bit thinner at the area surrounding the deck. There have been heated arguments in years past as to the blocks this feature applied to and which it did not apply to. Some say it was Mercury only, some say not. The rule of thumb when talking about Ford is it's usually safe to say that when it comes to Ford, never say never and never say always.

The "raised intake or depressed block" didn't show up until 1941.


Attached are pages form here, https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/985i6...ah6sxw1jq&dl=0

[Ken/Alabama]

Originally Posted by WarbirdPhotog

Where about are you talking? I can get some photos tomorrow when it's light out. I'm used to WW2 Jeep engines, so these V8s are a bit new for me.

Look along the sides of the block just above the oil pan. A correct 40 block should have two humps on each side. They should be right where the pan gasket protrudes out some. I circled it in one of the pictures. The other picture shows what is referred to a raised block. 41-42 blocks have that. Look around the intake where it meets the block and check for a ledge .

[WarbirdPhotog]

Originally Posted by Ken/Alabama

Look along the sides of the block just above the oil pan. A correct 40 block should have two humps on each side. They should be right where the pan gasket protrudes out some. I circled it in one of the pictures. The other picture shows what is referred to a raised block. 41-42 blocks have that. Look around the intake where it meets the block and check for a ledge .

Hopefully these help? It's really difficult to tell if there is a lip or not. I can't tell if it's part of the intake manifold or a lip with all the paint, but the front doesn't appear to have a lip?
I didn't see your post till this evening, so I'll check again tomorrow for the bump, but I also have some photos of the oil pan area.









Oil Pan area:

[Ken/Alabama]

I zoomed in on one of the pictures and it looks to have a raised ledge underneath the intake. Also towards the rear it looks as thought there’s a little gap between the gasket and block hinting the gasket is sitting on a raised part.

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by Ken/Alabama

I zoomed in on one of the pictures and it looks to have a raised ledge underneath the intake. Also towards the rear it looks as thought there’s a little gap between the gasket and block hinting the gasket is sitting on a raised part.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Ken/Alabama

I zoomed in on one of the pictures and it looks to have a raised ledge underneath the intake. Also towards the rear it looks as thought there’s a little gap between the gasket and block hinting the gasket is sitting on a raised part.

Ken, I think you may be correct. That would make the block post 1940 for certain. Good eyes!

[WarbirdPhotog]

Originally Posted by Ken/Alabama

I zoomed in on one of the pictures and it looks to have a raised ledge underneath the intake. Also towards the rear it looks as thought there’s a little gap between the gasket and block hinting the gasket is sitting on a raised part.

Well darn! Was really hoping this was the original 1940 engine. Not that that's terrible as it's still 1940s, but just another example that an advertised 'barn find original' might not be as original as thought.

[ford38v8]

Warbird, don’t fret about the engine not being original to the car, very few are. You may rejoice, however, at your transmission being original. The serial number of your transmission is *18-5443670*, which will be the registration number of your title, and will also be visible on the top surface of the frame near the steering box. Get happy! That number on the frame will likely be covered with black grease, which will preserve it from deterioration. Be careful in cleaning it to read it, use a soft brush and dawn dish soap, never use a wire brush.

[WarbirdPhotog]

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Originally Posted by ford38v8

Warbird, don’t fret about the engine not being original to the car, very few are. You may rejoice, however, at your transmission being original. The serial number of your transmission is *18-5443670*, which will be the registration number of your title, and will also be visible on the top surface of the frame near the steering box. Get happy! That number on the frame will likely be covered with black grease, which will preserve it from deterioration. Be careful in cleaning it to read it, use a soft brush and dawn dish soap, never use a wire brush.

That I actually did know! It was one of the first things I did when I got the original floor covers off. They do indeed match. Somebody had removed the paint before me on the frame rail so it was easy to see the number.

[38 coupe]

Your engine block sounds like a 41A unit to me. Post war 221 replacement blocks with most but not all external features of the 59 blocks. No core plug in the oil pan rail, no raised intake, flush exhaust ports, passes the pencil test.

For more information read through the thread we did on engine identification: https://fordbarn.com/forum/showthrea...4280&showall=1
Also available as part of the large collection of information glennpm has collected: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/985i6...ah6sxw1jq&dl=0

[fortyfords]

This may help to see the raised block line for the intake.

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by fortyfords

This may help to see the raised block line for the intake.

[WarbirdPhotog]

Originally Posted by 38 coupe

Your engine block sounds like a 41A unit to me. Post war 221 replacement blocks with most but not all external features of the 59 blocks. No core plug in the oil pan rail, no raised intake, flush exhaust ports, passes the pencil test.

Except people are saying it does have a raised intake. So that seems to make it a 41-42.

Originally Posted by fortyfords

This may help to see the raised block line for the intake.

I'm going to eventually take off the fenders, and some of the engine items, so I can paint it. That should give me better access to check that out. I want to temporarily remove the original heater to do this, as that thing blocks a lot of the angles to get photos. I know my engine doesn't have that nub raised dot on the shoulder flat area in your photo.

This photo below (from the other side of the engine from your photo) does seem to look like yours with the raised section:

[38 coupe]

Originally Posted by fortyfords

This may help to see the raised block line for the intake.

I agree, that is a raised deck. It is a 41-42 motor.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by 38 coupe

I agree, that is a raised deck. It is a 41-42 motor.

Agreed.