Grant piston rings

[Missouri A]

Any one out there have a secret on how to keep the "THIRD'' ring in place.

Grant says that "TWO"' colors should show and "NOT"' over lap.

I get it set like that, then when I install the upper and lower band ring it jumps out of place and over laps.
Any and all comments welcome

Stan

[bbrocksr]

Originally Posted by Missouri A

Any one out there have a secret on how to keep the "THIRD'' ring in place.

Grant says that "TWO"' colors should show and "NOT"' over lap.

I get it set like that, then when I install the upper and lower band ring it jumps out of place and over laps.
Any and all comments welcome

Stan

Make sure the two ends are butted, push them to the bottom of the groove
then start one end of one rail about 180 degrees from the butted ends and spiral it into the groove past the butted ends while holding them down in the groove.
Check to make sure the're still butted and repeat with the other rail.

Bill

[Missouri A]

Thanks alot Bill
I just went out and tried it the way you stated and worked very well. The upper and lower rings are about 100 degrees from the butted ends and around 3 1/2" apart.

Ill settle for that.
Thanks again

Stan

[Tom Wesenberg]

Most instruction sheets will tell you to spiral the thin rail on in one direction and spiral the second rail in the opposite direction. I make sure the rail gaps are staggered about 130* to 180* apart, and make sure the other two ring gaps are staggered and don't fall in line with the oil ring gaps.

[tbirdtbird]

a couple years ago there was a huge controversy on here when it was claimed that the placement of the gap in the rings did not matter since the rings rotate all over the place all the time. It was a theory I had trouble embracing. Let's see what they all say this time. Let the games begin

[Mitch//pa]

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I line my ring gaps up in a row so I have some healthy blowby

[Tom Wesenberg]

I mentioned this before, but for all the new people here, back in the 60's I was overhauling a Chevy V8 for a guy and found one cylinder had a straight line of steel running up and down the cylinder from where all the gaps were lined up. Never would have believed it had I not seen it with my own eyes.

Almost as unbelievable was a Model A engine I took apart and found 3 of the rod dippers facing the wrong direction, and yet the rods and crank weren't damaged. It maybe was never run before I bought it after someone messed it up.

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

I mentioned this before, but for all the new people here, back in the 60's I was overhauling a Chevy V8 for a guy and found one cylinder had a straight line of steel running up and down the cylinder from where all the gaps were lined up. Never would have believed it had I not seen it with my own eyes.

Almost as unbelievable was a Model A engine I took apart and found 3 of the rod dippers facing the wrong direction, and yet the rods and crank weren't damaged. It maybe was never run before I bought it after someone messed it up.

Facing the dippers the wrong way is what happens if we follow the vendor's instructions. They say to face them to the passenger's side. WRONG They need to face the driver's side on a RHD car. I've drawn this to their attention a number of times but they won't change. I suggested they change the word "Passenger's for "camshaft" so it doesn't matter which hand the car is. Maybe they will take heed when somebody claims a warranty repair for a ruined motor after installing according to their instructions.

[tbirdtbird]

well, Tom, I guess that settles the question of the rings rotating around the piston all by themselves as the engine is running

[katy]

Facing the dippers the wrong way is what happens if we follow the vendor's instructions. They say to face them to the passenger's side. WRONG They need to face the driver's side on a RHD car.

Which side of the dipper are you calling the face? The side w/the opening? or The other side?

If you "face" the opening of the dipper to the drivers side (LHS) it will be dragging through the oil rather than scooping the oil.

[Tom Wesenberg]

I didn't think the mention of the dipper facing the wrong way would lead to this confusion, but I always just say the open side of the dipper must face the cam.

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by katy

Which side of the dipper are you calling the face? The side w/the opening? or The other side?

If you "face" the opening of the dipper to the drivers side (LHS) it will be dragging through the oil rather than scooping the oil.

Katy, I'm referring to the open side as "facing" and if it faces the driver's side, the OPEN side scoops through the oil the way it's supposed to. Remember, I'm talking about RHD cars.
My point was that vendors don't seem to understand that they are leaving themselves open to damages claims by advising people to install the dippers facing the passenger's side which is the LEFT side in a country where the driver sits on the right.
Tom, There will always be some people who think they know more than they really do and try to put an engine together sticking to what they read, even though it may be wrong. There would be no confusion for somebody who knows what they are doing.

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by tbirdtbird

a couple years ago there was a huge controversy on here when it was claimed that the placement of the gap in the rings did not matter since the rings rotate all over the place all the time. It was a theory I had trouble embracing. Let's see what they all say this time. Let the games begin

I've pulled apart a lot of engines over the years that had a lot of cylinder wear; some with .015"-.020" taper. Now, if the top ring never rotated, there should be an unworn strip of cylinder wall the width of the ring gap and extending down to where the top of the second ring travel ends. I have never seen this! The ridge at the top of the ring travel is even all the way around the cylinder, indicting that the top ring was rotating in its groove as it wore away the cylinder wall.
I see that another poster found ONE cylinder in ONE engine years ago that had rings that did not rotate. Obviously something very much out of the ordinary was happening in that one cylinder.
I just went out and measured a 289 Ford piston (4"bore; close to a Model A). The ring land portion measured .035" smaller than the skirt diameter. So, .0175" between top of piston and cylinder wall, on each side of piston. Let's assume a ring gap of .025". That gives a ring gap area of .0004375 Sq. inches. The space between top and second rings has a cross section area of .006 sq. in. (counting both sides of the piston) and a total volume of approx..037 cubic inches. Thus, compression/combustion pressure getting through the top ring gap has plenty of room to easily and very quickly find its way around the piston to wherever the second ring gap is. Myth busted!

[katy]

Synchro909, my goof, I missed your reference to RHD, sorry about that.

I think Tom's citing of "the open side" makes sense.

I once found a set of dippers on a Model T that were on backwards and there was no hole in the rod cap.

, Ken

[Pop Alexandra]

Originally Posted by katy

I once found a set of dippers on a Model T that were on backwards and there was no hole in the rod cap.

It happened to me three times in a 5 year period. I thought it was a curse for a while.
___________________________
Alexandra from NDR Electric