The Ford Barn

Art Newland · 11-04-2016, 11:26 AM

Most of my driving around where I live is pretty flat, so I went looking for some good hills to see just what my all stock (except alternator) 30 Coupe could handle. One road in particular has a pretty steep climb that just keeps getting more uphill as you go, and is about 3/4 mile long. You also have to turn off of another road to enter so you can't make a straight on run with some momentum. My first try I revved pretty high in 2nd, then to 3rd and tried to make it to the top in third but couldn't do it. On try number 2, I switched back to 2nd much earlier and held 30 mph to the top. The engine pulled well, sounded good, and was smooth at 30 mph in second gear. How fast in 2nd gear is safe on the drive train?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVflYiEm_HA

ryanheacox · 11-04-2016, 01:01 PM

With everything stock, 30 in 2nd is about 2500rpm which is the same engine speed as 55 in high gear. With everything stock I probably wouldn't push it any further or hold it at that speed for a long time but for short bursts I don't think there would be any issue.

Remember, Ford rated these cars at 65mph when they were new, not that I would ever want to try it

ryanheacox · 11-04-2016, 01:03 PM

I use this website (meant for Jeeps) to calculate speeds and gear ratios. There's a lot more there than you need for a Model A but it comes in handy.

http://www.grimmjeeper.com/gears.html

Fullraceflathead · 11-04-2016, 01:05 PM

I believe 25mph is about 1000rpm in 3rd.
When I'm going up hill I shift into 3rd at 25mph but on level ground 20mph.
I'm all stock with 3.78 rear gears and 21" tires

BILL WILLIAMSON · 11-04-2016, 01:10 PM

I've run Minerva up to 45 MPH, in second---VROOOOM!--Helps keep the plugs burning CLEAN! I ran my Autolite plugs for 12,000 miles & never even looked at them. Chief always said, "If something works GOOD, leave it ALONE"!!
Bill Fast

Johns30 · 11-04-2016, 01:57 PM

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Wow, I need to figure out what my rear gear ratio is. Were there different options for 1930?
My car revs so high it sounds like it's going to blow up if I go faster than 20-25 in second or 40-45 in 3rd. I can't see how anyone could get up to 55 without doing some damage. Is it possible I have a 4.XX ratio?

What RPMS were these engines meant to run at safely?

This is my first "A" so thanks for the info - I'm still learning!

steve s · 01-13-2017, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryanheacox

With everything stock, 30 in 2nd is about 2500rpm which is the same engine speed as 55 in high gear. With everything stock I probably wouldn't push it any further or hold it at that speed for a long time but for short bursts I don't think there would be any issue.

Remember, Ford rated these cars at 65mph when they were new, not that I would ever want to try it

Quote:

Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

I've run Minerva up to 45 MPH, in second---VROOOOM!--Helps keep the plugs burning CLEAN! I ran my Autolite plugs for 12,000 miles & never even looked at them. Chief always said, "If something works GOOD, leave it ALONE"!!
Bill Fast

I've seen claims such as Bill's before (perhaps by someone else--I don't remember). I'm sorry but it's always seemed just impossible to me. For example, if 30 mph in 2nd gear is about 2500 rpm, 45 mph is about 3750 rpm. The horsepower vs. rpm graph available in the Model A books shows that at 70 mph is 3000 rpm in high gear, suggesting that 3000 rpm is close to the maximum possible. When I get my A over 25 mph in 2nd, the sound is almost painful; I can't imagine that it would let me wind it out for 15 more mph. (This is with 3.78 rear end, 21" tires, and a few motors and transmissions.)

Which leads me to ask, what is the highest rpm you've run your motor up to? And, can anyone else get their stock drivetrains up to 45 mph in 2nd gear?

Cornishman · 01-15-2017, 04:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve s

The horsepower vs. rpm graph available in the Model A books shows that at 70 mph is 3000 rpm in high gear, suggesting that 3000 rpm is close to the maximum possible.

It's not quite that simple. At 70 mph the Model A, with the aerodynamics of a brick, is having to work hard to push itself through the air. It may be relying on torque more than horsepower to maintain that speed. The same rpm in a lower gear would have much less aero resistance to deal with and might well rev beyond that point. Most modern cars would not be able to reach maximum revs in top gear despite getting to the red line easily in the others.
Practically it's irrelevant. When I'm out on the road driving my 3.3 litre, 86 year old car I do not have a rev counter to watch, I have my senses and the road conditions to work with. I live in a hilly area but at fairly low altitude so the are no very long climbs. When going up a hill I am able to gauge whether the car will pull third gear comfortably or not, if not I cruise up the hill in second as there is no point of revving the guts out of the engine. Last year I sold a small Suzuki motorcycle. Riding that was similar to driving the A, there were a lot of times that a low intermediary gear was the best choice, see-sawing between high revs in one gear and labouring in another solved nothing, much better to adjust the throttle and climb the hill comfortably. Come to think of it it's no different on my mountain bikes either.

Jacksonlll · 11-04-2016, 02:27 PM

30 in second is too fast. Slow down and enjoy the ride up.

Kevin in NJ · 11-04-2016, 02:27 PM

Keep in mind, it is not RPMs that kill in an engine.

If the crank, rods and such are properly balanced the bearing are riding on the oil film and all is well.

It is when you have the stuff out of balance or the timing not set right for the load on the engine. Pre-detination is a big problem for the engine.

If you know you have the crank and everything balanced out well then do not be afraid to run higher RPM's.

That being said....
Too many engines are not even close to properly being balanced. There it does not matter, the engine vibrates a lot and you do not feel safe running fast. The bearings will not hold up if you drive it hard.

Keep in mind, the Model A from the Factory ran 60 MPH no problem. Yes, even on the crappy roads of the day people were running them that hard. Tells you something about how well built the car was originally.

Art Newland · 11-04-2016, 04:44 PM

My car has some vibrations here and there but at higher revs it's quite smooth. It will easily attain 50+ mph on the flats, but can't say that I feel comfortable at that speed... 45 seems happier.

There is talk of a drive being put together by some local clubs beginning in Blaine, WA and traveling to Mt. Baker. It's a bout a 70 mile trip but the last 20 miles climbs 4000+ feet in elevation, and the last 8 miles has a lot of switchbacks as it climbs even more steeply. Sounds like maybe some sustained 25mph in second gear is doable?

Art Newland · 11-04-2016, 04:45 PM

map

Big hammer · 01-13-2017, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Art Newland

My car has some vibrations here and there but at higher revs it's quite smooth. It will easily attain 50+ mph on the flats, but can't say that I feel comfortable at that speed... 45 seems happier.

There is talk of a drive being put together by some local clubs beginning in Blaine, WA and traveling to Mt. Baker. It's a bout a 70 mile trip but the last 20 miles climbs 4000+ feet in elevation, and the last 8 miles has a lot of switchbacks as it climbs even more steeply. Sounds like maybe some sustained 25mph in second gear is doable?

Art did you go on the trip? What did you use for the hill climb? My car in second gear, the gear make more noise the faster I go, so I only use second gear when third gear is lugging the engine.

Bob Johnson · 01-13-2017, 05:06 PM

Here is what I calculate for the options in chart.

Ian Curtis · 01-15-2017, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Art Newland

My car has some vibrations here and there but at higher revs it's quite smooth. It will easily attain 50+ mph on the flats, but can't say that I feel comfortable at that speed... 45 seems happier.

There is talk of a drive being put together by some local clubs beginning in Blaine, WA and traveling to Mt. Baker. It's a bout a 70 mile trip but the last 20 miles climbs 4000+ feet in elevation, and the last 8 miles has a lot of switchbacks as it climbs even more steeply. Sounds like maybe some sustained 25mph in second gear is doable?

Art,

Looks like fun! Are we starting in Blaine, Benny's newsletter said it would start in Deming? At any rate, I think we would be fine. I have had the misfortune of being on the freeway on 5%+ grades out on the Olympic Peninsula, and while I didn't make many friends at the end of the day I never felt that unsafe and only got flipped off once (and yes, I used the pullouts whenever available & I was holding up traffic). I'm glad I did it.

One of these years, I'd love to start on the Pacific on the Summer Solstice & see how far across the state we can make it.

Dick Steinkamp · 01-15-2017, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian Curtis

One of these years, I'd love to start on the Pacific on the Summer Solstice & see how far across the state we can make it.

Let's do that one this summer, Ian. I'm in.

C26Pinelake · 11-04-2016, 02:43 PM

Remember that the more the car is stressed the the more probable chance of doing damage. The car is 85 years old and should be treated with respect. Wayne

C26Pinelake · 11-04-2016, 04:48 PM

Yes and have the car checked out to find the reason for the vibration by one of the more knowledgable members of the club. Wayne

msmaron · 11-04-2016, 05:22 PM

OVERDRIVE!!! 35-38 comfortably!

40 Deluxe · 11-04-2016, 05:43 PM

I don't have numbers at hand, but do research on RPM ratings for Model A industrial and agricultural power plants. Those engines barked at full throttle and full power for hours on end and lived a happy, fruitful life. In the early '50's an uncle built a home made tractor with A power. It pulled a plow for several years until he could afford a 'real' tractor, then became a 'chore' tractor pulling grain wagons and such. It's retired now like him, but as far as I know, it's only had one valve job in its life. So don't be afraid to work that A!
Oh, maybe that original '32 grill shell he has on it helped!

11-04-2016, 11:26 AM	#1
Art Newland Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Lynden, WA Posts: 1,564	How fast in 2nd gear? Most of my driving around where I live is pretty flat, so I went looking for some good hills to see just what my all stock (except alternator) 30 Coupe could handle. One road in particular has a pretty steep climb that just keeps getting more uphill as you go, and is about 3/4 mile long. You also have to turn off of another road to enter so you can't make a straight on run with some momentum. My first try I revved pretty high in 2nd, then to 3rd and tried to make it to the top in third but couldn't do it. On try number 2, I switched back to 2nd much earlier and held 30 mph to the top. The engine pulled well, sounded good, and was smooth at 30 mph in second gear. How fast in 2nd gear is safe on the drive train? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVflYiEm_HA

11-04-2016, 01:01 PM	#2
ryanheacox Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Northwest CT Posts: 1,092	Re: How fast in 2nd gear? With everything stock, 30 in 2nd is about 2500rpm which is the same engine speed as 55 in high gear. With everything stock I probably wouldn't push it any further or hold it at that speed for a long time but for short bursts I don't think there would be any issue. Remember, Ford rated these cars at 65mph when they were new, not that I would ever want to try it

11-04-2016, 01:03 PM	#3
ryanheacox Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Northwest CT Posts: 1,092	Re: How fast in 2nd gear? I use this website (meant for Jeeps) to calculate speeds and gear ratios. There's a lot more there than you need for a Model A but it comes in handy. http://www.grimmjeeper.com/gears.html

11-04-2016, 01:05 PM	#4
Fullraceflathead Senior Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: Chillicothe, Missouri Posts: 1,176	Re: How fast in 2nd gear? I believe 25mph is about 1000rpm in 3rd. When I'm going up hill I shift into 3rd at 25mph but on level ground 20mph. I'm all stock with 3.78 rear gears and 21" tires __________________ "If I asked people what they wanted they would have said faster horses." -Henry Ford "Primitive technology is not a design flaw" 1928 Ford Model A Roadster Pickup 1930 Gordon Smith Air Compressor 1941 Willy's Pickup 1960 Thunderbird-For Sale 1964 Buick Riviera 2x4 425 1965 Pontiac GTO, 455 Super Duty 2004 Dodge Ram SRT-10, V-10 Viper 1977 Charger Jet Boat,460 Ford,Jacuzzi Jet Front Engine Nostalgia Dragster,Supercharged 296 "Fullrace Flathead" Ford Engine Build up on DVD ask

11-04-2016, 01:10 PM	#5
BILL WILLIAMSON Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: FRESNO, CA Posts: 12,560	Re: How fast in 2nd gear? I've run Minerva up to 45 MPH, in second---VROOOOM!--Helps keep the plugs burning CLEAN! I ran my Autolite plugs for 12,000 miles & never even looked at them. Chief always said, "If something works GOOD, leave it ALONE"!! Bill Fast __________________ "THE ASSISTANT GURU OF STUFF" Last edited by BILL WILLIAMSON; 11-04-2016 at 06:56 PM.

11-04-2016, 01:57 PM	#6
Johns30 Member Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 32	Re: How fast in 2nd gear? Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Wow, I need to figure out what my rear gear ratio is. Were there different options for 1930? My car revs so high it sounds like it's going to blow up if I go faster than 20-25 in second or 40-45 in 3rd. I can't see how anyone could get up to 55 without doing some damage. Is it possible I have a 4.XX ratio? What RPMS were these engines meant to run at safely? This is my first "A" so thanks for the info - I'm still learning!

11-04-2016, 02:27 PM	#9
Jacksonlll Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Michigan-- Member of Oakleaf of MARC Posts: 1,686	Re: How fast in 2nd gear? 30 in second is too fast. Slow down and enjoy the ride up.

11-04-2016, 02:27 PM	#10
Kevin in NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: South East NJ Posts: 3,398	Re: How fast in 2nd gear? Keep in mind, it is not RPMs that kill in an engine. If the crank, rods and such are properly balanced the bearing are riding on the oil film and all is well. It is when you have the stuff out of balance or the timing not set right for the load on the engine. Pre-detination is a big problem for the engine. If you know you have the crank and everything balanced out well then do not be afraid to run higher RPM's. That being said.... Too many engines are not even close to properly being balanced. There it does not matter, the engine vibrates a lot and you do not feel safe running fast. The bearings will not hold up if you drive it hard. Keep in mind, the Model A from the Factory ran 60 MPH no problem. Yes, even on the crappy roads of the day people were running them that hard. Tells you something about how well built the car was originally.

11-04-2016, 04:44 PM	#11
Art Newland Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Lynden, WA Posts: 1,564	Re: How fast in 2nd gear? My car has some vibrations here and there but at higher revs it's quite smooth. It will easily attain 50+ mph on the flats, but can't say that I feel comfortable at that speed... 45 seems happier. There is talk of a drive being put together by some local clubs beginning in Blaine, WA and traveling to Mt. Baker. It's a bout a 70 mile trip but the last 20 miles climbs 4000+ feet in elevation, and the last 8 miles has a lot of switchbacks as it climbs even more steeply. Sounds like maybe some sustained 25mph in second gear is doable?

01-13-2017, 05:06 PM	#14
Bob Johnson Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: California Posts: 977	Chart in post #20 Here is what I calculate for the options in chart.

11-04-2016, 02:43 PM	#17
C26Pinelake BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Location: Michigan / Ontario border, Sarnia, Ontario. 50 miles from Detroit and 150 from Toronto. Posts: 5,800	Re: How fast in 2nd gear? Remember that the more the car is stressed the the more probable chance of doing damage. The car is 85 years old and should be treated with respect. Wayne

11-04-2016, 04:48 PM	#18
C26Pinelake BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Location: Michigan / Ontario border, Sarnia, Ontario. 50 miles from Detroit and 150 from Toronto. Posts: 5,800	Re: How fast in 2nd gear? Yes and have the car checked out to find the reason for the vibration by one of the more knowledgable members of the club. Wayne

11-04-2016, 05:22 PM	#19
msmaron Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Wauconda, IL Posts: 3,600	Re: How fast in 2nd gear? OVERDRIVE!!! 35-38 comfortably! __________________ Mark Maron Ill., Region MARC & MAFCA MARC JSC Member MAFFI Trustee National Facebook Admin. https://www.facebook.com/groups/MARC.group/ A7191-Sport Coupe 29 Roadster 29-Town Sedan 29-Original Special Coupe

11-04-2016, 05:43 PM	#20
40 Deluxe Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: now Kuna, Idaho Posts: 3,778	Re: How fast in 2nd gear? I don't have numbers at hand, but do research on RPM ratings for Model A industrial and agricultural power plants. Those engines barked at full throttle and full power for hours on end and lived a happy, fruitful life. In the early '50's an uncle built a home made tractor with A power. It pulled a plow for several years until he could afford a 'real' tractor, then became a 'chore' tractor pulling grain wagons and such. It's retired now like him, but as far as I know, it's only had one valve job in its life. So don't be afraid to work that A! Oh, maybe that original '32 grill shell he has on it helped!