Let's talk breaks

[1928Pickuppain]

So my breaks in my A are locking up. The peddle is super hard this problem has slowly been getting worse. My solution is when I get my taxes back I'm going to do a 100% overhaul to the break system going to go with cast iron drums woven pads and new rods as springs. My question is what other parts do I need to replace. Some history- the passenger side king pin is worn and I'm going to replace that I Hurd bad king pin can play hell with the breaks. Also when I bought the truck the old man gave me (all his receipts from Preavous work done according to him and the receipts the last time the breaks were done was 1948. When I bought it it had no stoping power at all so I rivoted on new shoes in the front. Didn't have a puller to take off rear drums. I recently bought an original one off eBay for the task. So knowing that what sould the parts be I need to replace?

Thanks,
Derek

[chopo]

brakes?

[Joe K]

Yours is a BIG question. You could technically replace EVERYTHING about the brake system with new - and except for the cross shaft they are all being reproduced.

I can see how a bad king-pin could cause braking problems on all four wheels. Think of your brake system as "lost motion" rather than a bunch of links. As your king pin wears, things go out of alignment and you adjust the brakes to compensate over time. Eventually everything goes to accommodate that new position/orientation of that front wheel.

And then the day comes when the front wheel receives a bump or a jolt and it's pushed to a new position. Voila - no more free motion and the brakes lock - all around. And then a few more feet or a couple of pushes on the brake pedal, and the free motion is restored.

Best thing to do is start from the beginning and along the brake renewal process take no compromise for your answer. This can be hard as there may come a part you say "This isn't worn that much and I'll re-use it." RESIST temptation to accept less than 100 percent original condition. Restoration filled with compromises may make you something that works - but only if you're lucky. I'm not.

Hope this encouragement helps you. Perfection in braking is insurance money against an accident. And it sounds like your car is nearing the end of it's useful brake life.

Joe K

[28RPU]

I am on a break now, thats why I am on the computer....

[Chris Haynes]

You need to take a break from talking about your brakes.

[Fred K-OR]

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Come on guys, this fellow needs some answers about his A, not a spelling lesson. I to without spell check could have many problems in this area.

Derek, the question of how much to do depends on how much you want to spend. To do the whole thing of getting good brakes could cost you $1000 to $1500 if you do a lot of the work yourself. I think I would go with the new cast iron drums. Don't know if you need new brake rods, depends on their condition-can you adjust the ends?? If not, get some new ones or used ones. I would take the backing plates off and inspect all the parts on them, both front and back, and replace many of the parts on the backing plates. Also make sure all the brake levers and bushings are working well. And of course, install new linings on all four wheels and make sure you center the brakes and assure the linings "fit" the drums.

About your front end. While working on the brakes, as you mentioned, it is a good time to do things in this area also. Again, it depends on how much you want to spend. But getting the front end is shape is important and something you need to do when you want to spend the money.

Andrews book helps a lot in doing things in both of these areas. If you do not have the number 1 book, would be a good purchase to think about.

OK guys, I know my grammer is terrible-so go at it!

[Del in NE Ohio]

I've seen guys spend a ton of $ on the brakes and then find that the brakes are not much improved... all because they gave no thought to the condition of the cross shaft. If it is badly worn, most of what you repair downstream is for naught!

[Patrick L.]

You'll never know until the drums are off. And the thing about mechanical brakes is that they need to be pretty much perfect to work correctly. And that means everything from the pedal thru the rods all the way to the shoes. The conversion to cast drums is an expensive one, so all lot of time and money can go into a good set of brakes.

[dave in australia]

Spend some time setting the arms correctly. The fronts should have about 15 degrees forward tilt and the rears about 15 degrees rearward tilt. This will give you full movement of the brakes. To see why, while you have the brakes apart and shoes off, pull the arm as if you were applying the brakes. The cam on the end of the shaft that pushes the pin down onto the wedge will hit the inner diameter if the kingpin socket. This is why the rods should never be used to adjust for brake shoe wear. Also get the shoes arched to match the drum diameter and then centralized on the backing plate.When setup correctly, you will be surprised how good the brakes are, and don't really need floater kits.

[1928Pickuppain]

Thanks for the replys Guys ya no I'm very
Dislexic and don't have a computer any more I use my cell phone with no spell check I thank you guys who were serous responders. I'm going to be pulling the tires and drums one night this week. I do plan on spending $1000+ on them and doing the work myself.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by 1928Pickuppain

Thanks for the replys Guys ya no I'm very
Dislexic and don't have a computer any more I use my cell phone with no spell check I thank you guys who were serous responders. I'm going to be pulling the tires and drums one night this week. I do plan on spending $1000+ on them and doing the work myself.

dyslexic/whatever...I am with you !
I suggest that you make a written 'list'/plan of actions...to be taken and those tasks completed! That way you can stay on track with this complicated journey/job. There's so much info available, that you can be sidetracked and if so, miss a step that makes problems when it doesn't perform as you expected it would. I also found it helpful to take pictures of 'things' before/after. That way, if you do get confused, post pics here, if you can, for help to see where things went right/wrong.
Just my way of dealing with similar shortcomings

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by 1928Pickuppain

Thanks for the replys Guys ya no I'm very
Dislexic and don't have a computer any more I use my cell phone with no spell check I thank you guys who were serous responders. I'm going to be pulling the tires and drums one night this week. I do plan on spending $1000+ on them and doing the work myself.

I can't imagine not having a computor, if for no other reason than to view helpful pictures.

Maybe I'm missing something though, because I've never owned a cell phone.

[jkeesey]

Tom cell phones now are nothing more than a tiny computer, not really used for making phone calls anymore. As far as the brake repair i would go along with the old addage of "your not really gonna know what you need til you get in there." Just factor if you want your brakes to be great just look at the brake section in your parts catalog and start adding all the prices on the page.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

I can't imagine not having a computor, if for no other reason than to view helpful pictures.

Myabe I'm missing something though, because I've never owned a cell phone.

Hey Tom,
Ha,ha...you've got a good cents of humor..don't lose it
My wife just got me a 'cell phone' and I am trying , but she says that I'm never going to understand it ...if I don't use it. I replied that it costs so much that I'm afraid of losing it, which is ironic because she says that she got it so that I can get help...if I'm lost

[Fred K-OR]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

Hey Tom,
Ha,ha...you've got a good cents of humor..don't lose it
My wife just got me a 'cell phone' and I am trying , but she says that I'm never going to understand it ...if I don't use it. I replied that it costs so much that I'm afraid of losing it, which is ironic because she says that she got it so that I can get help...if I'm lost

You are correct-never leave home (in an A) without it. I take mine on every trip so I can either call the wife to come and get me or call AAA.

Also the newer ones now have GPS so it can keep you lost!

[ctlikon0712]

It won't be very large on your "cell phone" but I posted a Barrett Brake manual about how to do A brakes from 1948. I is nicely done and has allot of good info on how and when to do what.

Here is the link
http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...hlight=barrett

It was added as a PDF on the last thread.

[Mike in NRN IN]

When I got my Coupe - the brakes were non-existent - pedal was hard and still no brakes.

While I eventually did a complete brake job - the first thing I did was spray penetrating oil on the bushing for the brake cross shaft, and all the pivot points. After a few days of spraying the entire system was loosened. Then I could find the problem parts (basically everything required some kind of repair/refurbish/replacement)

The same thing for the Emergency brake cross shaft. It's amazing how bound-up the system was.

Works like a dream now.

Enjoy the process (and get the Les Andrews book!)

[700rpm]

Derek: I suggest you completely disassemble your entire brake system and do a quality check on all parts before you buy any new parts. Many worn parts can be repaired (eyes can be welded and redrilled and rods can be straightened, for example). Have a brake shop check your drums for wear. If they can still be trued up on a brake lathe it's cheaper than replacing them. Cast iron is great, but only necessary depending on the amount and kind of driving you will be doing.

After careful examination of all parts then talk to your suppliers and order what you think is needed.

Good luck with it all, and keep us posted on your progress.

[metalho]

Originally Posted by 700rpm

Derek: I suggest you completely disassemble your entire brake system and do a quality check on all parts before you buy any new parts. Many worn parts can be repaired (eyes can be welded and redrilled and rods can be straightened, for example). Have a brake shop check your drums for wear, If they can still be trued up on a brake lathe it's cheaper than replacing them. Cast iron is great, but only necessary depending on the amount and kind of driving you will be doing.

After careful examination of all parts then talk to your suppliers and order what you think is needed.

Good luck with it all, and keep us posted on your progress.

Amen Brother. I toor down my entire brake system and replaced all worn parts, did have to replace the front drums so my expence was a little high. Im real close to being retarded lol, but with the help of my Les Andrews book it was a cake walk. Youtube has a video on adjusting after your done that is easy to understand. Like I said, Im not the sharpest tool in the shed and I had no prob on the brakes.

[pat in Santa Cruz]

Use molded linings on cast drums. There is a soft gray lining that works very well on cast iron. Woven linings will squeal on it. As the other guys have said, you have to eliminate all lost motion...from the loose pedal pins, the cross shaft, worn clevises, pins, cam bushings in the rear and operating shafts and bushings. Check with Mel Gross ( in LA 714-292-8660) about getting your drums and shoes and having them installed to the hubs and having the shoes arced. His price is pretty reasonable for the quality of work he offers. Also check your rear axle housing bearing race to insure it is still round..if it is worn too far at the bottom, you will not be able to center the rear shoes correctly. Its a big job, but properly done brakes on an A will really impress you with their ability to stop.

[CarlG]

Originally Posted by metalho

... Im not the sharpest tool in the shed ...

Is that because you live in Bothell?

[Fred K-OR]

"Use molded linings on cast drums. There is a soft gray lining that works very well on cast iron. Woven linings will squeal on it."

Thanks Pat. So that is why both my rigs squeal. Have cast iron on both and woven on both.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

No one seems to ever mention lubrication! Like using an acid brush & the old white Lubriplate, applied to any metal to metal contact points & any other moving/sliding brake mechanism parts so moving mechanism friction is held to a minimum. In my "era" it was common practice in order for harmonics NOT to have a place to create those "HIGH C NOTES"! Like, SCREEEEEEEEEEEECH! Bill W.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by Fred K-OR

"Use molded linings on cast drums. There is a soft gray lining that works very well on cast iron. Woven linings will squeal on it."

Thanks Pat. So that is why both my rigs squeal. Have cast iron on both and woven on both.

Fred, lubricating stuff like I talked about, might stop your squeeeeeeeeeeeeeeling! Bill W.

[ctvpa]

My Humble opinion, Buy the video "How to stop on a dime" buy double d productions. It is great an takes you step by step.
Next invest in Flathead Teds brake floaters. http://www.flatheadted.com/ They are available at snyders, but check, when I bought mine, it was less expensive to buy from Ted. I got the deluxe set, but the regular set is fine.
When you replace your drums, you need a machine shop that knows how to do it. It has to be done right, by someone who has done many.
In some Model A supply places they are selling remanufactured hubs (or new) with the drums turned with the hubs mounted. You will save money in the end.
Measure you rods and be sure all are equal, I doubt you need new ones.

[pat in Santa Cruz]

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Originally Posted by Fred K-OR

"Use molded linings on cast drums. There is a soft gray lining that works very well on cast iron. Woven linings will squeal on it."

Thanks Pat. So that is why both my rigs squeal. Have cast iron on both and woven on both.

squealing is also caused if the linings are not tightly riveted or not well centered and arced. That kind of squeal is pretty alarming. If it just squeals like a 60s-70's VW, thats the linings.

[700rpm]

Originally Posted by pat in Santa Cruz

squealing is also caused if the linings are not tightly riveted or not well centered and arced. That kind of squeal is pretty alarming. If it just squeals like a 60s-70's VW, thats the linings.

They will also squeal if the ends of the linings are not chamfered about 1/4".