The Ford Barn

outsider347 · 06-04-2021, 12:53 PM

Having a bit of a problem with brakes pulling left

Looking the brakes over on my car, noticed that the longer lining is in the rear position. Yes I know, thats the way I have allways done it
Lookin in my old Motors manual 1935 to 52, The instruction, for Lockheed (1) is to position the longer lining to the front.
Correct??

Tks Gents
ed

19Fordy · 06-04-2021, 01:03 PM

Your 35-52 Motors Manual is correct. Your brakes are known as Lockheed style brakes. The longer shoe goes to the front and the larger dia. of the wheel cylinder faces to the front towards the longer shoe. Lots of info. in the SEARCH dept. For instance:
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...ockheed+brakes

outsider347 · 06-04-2021, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 19Fordy

Your 35-52 Motors Manual is correct. Your brakes are known as Lockheed style brakes. The longer shoe goes to the front and the larger dia. of the wheel cylinder faces to the front towards the longer shoe. Lots of info. in the SEARCH dept. For instance:
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...ockheed+brakes

Tks Fordy.
I'm new to 40 Ford.
Still learning the car, and how to properly navigate here

ed

1931 flamingo · 06-04-2021, 01:44 PM

There is a 40 Ford expert on the EV8 Club Website. There's also a new book dedicated to the 40 Ford available from the EV8 Club (written by the same fellow).
Paul in CT

cas3 · 06-04-2021, 01:48 PM

any grease or oil on thee shoe can cause them to be "grabby" on the first hit, then fade

V8COOPMAN · 06-04-2021, 05:22 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by 1931 flamingo

There is a 40 Ford expert on the EV8 Club Website. There's also a new book dedicated to the 40 Ford available from the EV8 Club (written by the same fellow).
Paul in CT

That "EXPERT" (Mike Kubarth) would be "Kube" right here on the old FordBarn, too. His long-awaited book shown below! DD

Kube
Senior Member

Join Date: May 2010
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 6,902

......

outsider347 · 06-05-2021, 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 19Fordy

Your 35-52 Motors Manual is correct. Your brakes are known as Lockheed style brakes. The longer shoe goes to the front and the larger dia. of the wheel cylinder faces to the front towards the longer shoe. Lots of info. in the SEARCH dept. For instance:
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...ockheed+brakes

Safe to assume, all 4 wheels?

19Fordy · 06-05-2021, 09:14 AM

Yes, all 4 wheels. Vehicle is a 40 Ford.

First photo is left front (driver side).

2nd photo is right rear (pass side).

deuce_roadster · 06-05-2021, 07:06 PM

Ed, getting the rear drums off IF PROPERLY TIGHT can be a challenge without the proper puller that pulls on the ridge of the hub close to the nut that holds it on. You will hear of a KRWilson puller or a remake of such. If you are going to be keeping the car you should invest in one of these types of pullers, not one that pulls on the lug studs. The hub is supposed to be driven by the taper of the axle fitting tight on the taper in the hub, not by the key. The best way to tighten those axle nuts after having the hub/drum off is to have both the axle taper and the bore where it seats clean and dry without any oil or grease. First tighten up the nut pretty tight, drive around the block, re-tighten and keep doing this a couple of times until it no longer tightens and then put your torque wrench on it and take it up to close to 200 ft lbs. You don't just run it up that tight all at once. Axles that were run loose will start a crack at the inboard end of the key slot and eventually break off at that point losing both the wheel, tire and hub/brake drum creating a dangerous situation. Carefully inspect the keyway slot and if a new key doesn't fit tight have the axle checked by either using magnaflux or dye penetrant. This is the most common reason rear axles on these old Fords break. Anyone new to old Fords needs to know this.

outsider347 · 06-05-2021, 09:49 PM

Thanks for the info Mike.
From your description, I don't think that I have 40 drums on the rear.
came off the hub pretty easy... no puller necessary ....just like the fronts

Come to think of it, the rear drums were marked with a paint stick 41

JSeery · 06-05-2021, 09:58 PM

If the drums came off that ease something is not right! Ford banjo drums do not, and should not, come off easy. They were most likely installed improperly, if they were mine I would be checking the axles and hubs over very closely for damage. Read post #9 carefully.

V8COOPMAN · 06-06-2021, 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outsider347

Thanks for the info Mike.
From your description, I don't think that I have 40 drums on the rear.
came off the hub pretty easy... no puller necessary ....just like the fronts

Come to think of it, the rear drums were marked with a paint stick 41

1940 and '41 brake drums AND backing plates were of the same design, mechanically. 1940 & '41 drums were generally seen in two distinct forms or shapes from the factory on the outside. Those two iterations are seen below. Their inner surface dimensions are identical and interchangeable with each other. DD

In total agreement with above comments....if it came off EASY, it was never anywhere near tight enough, and can easily cause axle fatigue and damage. As stated above, the degree of tightness on the taper of axle and hub is what causes the friction that DRIVES the drum....NOT that key. It works on the same principle as a "Morse Taper". DD

fortyonerag · 06-06-2021, 04:40 AM

The drums came off the rear of my 41 fairly easy too.
In fairness, the axle bolt was finger tight and the hubcaps were full of grease!
New axles ensued.

outsider347 · 06-06-2021, 07:40 AM

Mornin Gents

I think that I caused some confusion here with `my poor description of the rear drum.

I have a rear hub / lug studs affixed to the axle taper.
The drums slip on over the studs to the face of the hub making rear drum removal easy

I didn't have to remove the axle nut to remove the drums

I apologize for the confusion....I didn't realize that what I have is maybe a non standard 40 rear drum setup

I'll get pics of this later today

Fred A · 06-06-2021, 09:53 AM

There was a common modification where the studs (bolts) were fixed to the hubs and drums placed over the studs for eased removal. Now the modifications have come a long way toward making the old 3/4 floating rear axle more bullet proof. As for the experts, like Kube there are others who bring a lot of experience to the board. In a face to face, 40larry cleared up a long suffering quest to rebuild the '40 steering lock. Dozens of posts skirted the question. This board really has depth! Our good luck: Fred A

HD Rider · 06-06-2021, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outsider347

Mornin Gents

I think that I caused some confusion here with `my poor description of the rear drum.

I have a rear hub / lug studs affixed to the axle taper.
The drums slip on over the studs to the face of the hub making rear drum removal easy

I didn't have to remove the axle nut to remove the drums

I apologize for the confusion....I didn't realize that what I have is maybe a non standard 40 rear drum setup

I'll get pics of this later today

I have the same setup on all four corners of mine. The original drums were swedged to the hub so removal required removing the hub/drum assembly. The swedge had to be cut to remove the drum from the hub. There are repop drums and studs available that do not require swedging and slip on/off as you describe.

deuce_roadster · 06-06-2021, 11:32 AM

Ok, I didn't know you had a non stock setup there. Nice for you but you still need to verify that the hub is tight on the axle or problems will occur. What you describe sure makes it easy to check the rear brakes. At some point you will need to remove the hub to grease the rear wheel bearings. Gear oil from the rear end is NOT supposed to get out to where the bearings are. There are small axle seals that are installed from the inside of the housing that are to keep the gear oil in there. My 1st car was a Model A and I thought that the gear oil was supposed to lube the wheel bearings! I was 12 and learned quickly it also "lubed" the brake shoes.

outsider347 · 06-06-2021, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deuce_roadster

Ok, I didn't know you had a non stock setup there. Nice for you but you still need to verify that the hub is tight on the axle or problems will occur. What you describe sure makes it easy to check the rear brakes. At some point you will need to remove the hub to grease the rear wheel bearings. Gear oil from the rear end is NOT supposed to get out to where the bearings are. There are small axle seals that are installed from the inside of the housing that are to keep the gear oil in there. My 1st car was a Model A and I thought that the gear oil was supposed to lube the wheel bearings! I was 12 and learned quickly it also "lubed" the brake shoes.

Mike, is this the correct rear hub puller?

http://www.vintageprecision.com/prod...ers/index.html

HD Rider · 06-06-2021, 02:43 PM

I use one like this.
https://modelastore.com/tools/brakes...roduct_id=3370
Some have good luck with these, but V8 cars are torqued twice as much as model A's.
https://modelastore.com/tools/brakes...roduct_id=3368

deuce_roadster · 06-06-2021, 06:31 PM

Yes, that is the style puller you should use on the old Ford rear hubs.

06-04-2021, 12:53 PM	#1
outsider347 Member Join Date: Dec 2016 Location: Orchard Park NY Posts: 93	Ouestion..40 Ford brakes Having a bit of a problem with brakes pulling left Looking the brakes over on my car, noticed that the longer lining is in the rear position. Yes I know, thats the way I have allways done it Lookin in my old Motors manual 1935 to 52, The instruction, for Lockheed (1) is to position the longer lining to the front. Correct?? Tks Gents ed

06-04-2021, 01:03 PM	#2
19Fordy Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Coral Springs FL Posts: 10,936	Re: Ouestion..40 Ford brakes Your 35-52 Motors Manual is correct. Your brakes are known as Lockheed style brakes. The longer shoe goes to the front and the larger dia. of the wheel cylinder faces to the front towards the longer shoe. Lots of info. in the SEARCH dept. For instance: https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...ockheed+brakes

06-04-2021, 01:44 PM	#4
1931 flamingo Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: new britain,ct 06052 Posts: 9,390	Re: Ouestion..40 Ford brakes There is a 40 Ford expert on the EV8 Club Website. There's also a new book dedicated to the 40 Ford available from the EV8 Club (written by the same fellow). Paul in CT

06-04-2021, 01:48 PM	#5
cas3 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: sw minnesota Posts: 4,572	Re: Ouestion..40 Ford brakes any grease or oil on thee shoe can cause them to be "grabby" on the first hit, then fade

06-05-2021, 09:49 PM	#10
outsider347 Member Join Date: Dec 2016 Location: Orchard Park NY Posts: 93	Re: Ouestion..40 Ford brakes Thanks for the info Mike. From your description, I don't think that I have 40 drums on the rear. came off the hub pretty easy... no puller necessary ....just like the fronts Come to think of it, the rear drums were marked with a paint stick 41

06-05-2021, 07:06 PM	#9
deuce_roadster Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Shelton, WA Posts: 3,800	Re: Ouestion..40 Ford brakes Ed, getting the rear drums off IF PROPERLY TIGHT can be a challenge without the proper puller that pulls on the ridge of the hub close to the nut that holds it on. You will hear of a KRWilson puller or a remake of such. If you are going to be keeping the car you should invest in one of these types of pullers, not one that pulls on the lug studs. The hub is supposed to be driven by the taper of the axle fitting tight on the taper in the hub, not by the key. The best way to tighten those axle nuts after having the hub/drum off is to have both the axle taper and the bore where it seats clean and dry without any oil or grease. First tighten up the nut pretty tight, drive around the block, re-tighten and keep doing this a couple of times until it no longer tightens and then put your torque wrench on it and take it up to close to 200 ft lbs. You don't just run it up that tight all at once. Axles that were run loose will start a crack at the inboard end of the key slot and eventually break off at that point losing both the wheel, tire and hub/brake drum creating a dangerous situation. Carefully inspect the keyway slot and if a new key doesn't fit tight have the axle checked by either using magnaflux or dye penetrant. This is the most common reason rear axles on these old Fords break. Anyone new to old Fords needs to know this.

06-05-2021, 09:58 PM	#11
JSeery Member Emeritus Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 16,132	Re: Ouestion..40 Ford brakes If the drums came off that ease something is not right! Ford banjo drums do not, and should not, come off easy. They were most likely installed improperly, if they were mine I would be checking the axles and hubs over very closely for damage. Read post #9 carefully. Last edited by JSeery; 06-06-2021 at 08:07 PM.

06-06-2021, 04:40 AM	#13
fortyonerag Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: Melbourne Australia Posts: 541	Re: Ouestion..40 Ford brakes The drums came off the rear of my 41 fairly easy too. In fairness, the axle bolt was finger tight and the hubcaps were full of grease! New axles ensued.

06-06-2021, 07:40 AM	#14
outsider347 Member Join Date: Dec 2016 Location: Orchard Park NY Posts: 93	Re: Ouestion..40 Ford brakes Mornin Gents I think that I caused some confusion here with `my poor description of the rear drum. I have a rear hub / lug studs affixed to the axle taper. The drums slip on over the studs to the face of the hub making rear drum removal easy I didn't have to remove the axle nut to remove the drums I apologize for the confusion....I didn't realize that what I have is maybe a non standard 40 rear drum setup I'll get pics of this later today

06-06-2021, 09:53 AM	#15
Fred A Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Encino California, near Burbank Posts: 935	Re: Ouestion..40 Ford brakes There was a common modification where the studs (bolts) were fixed to the hubs and drums placed over the studs for eased removal. Now the modifications have come a long way toward making the old 3/4 floating rear axle more bullet proof. As for the experts, like Kube there are others who bring a lot of experience to the board. In a face to face, 40larry cleared up a long suffering quest to rebuild the '40 steering lock. Dozens of posts skirted the question. This board really has depth! Our good luck: Fred A

06-06-2021, 11:32 AM	#17
deuce_roadster Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Shelton, WA Posts: 3,800	Re: Ouestion..40 Ford brakes Ok, I didn't know you had a non stock setup there. Nice for you but you still need to verify that the hub is tight on the axle or problems will occur. What you describe sure makes it easy to check the rear brakes. At some point you will need to remove the hub to grease the rear wheel bearings. Gear oil from the rear end is NOT supposed to get out to where the bearings are. There are small axle seals that are installed from the inside of the housing that are to keep the gear oil in there. My 1st car was a Model A and I thought that the gear oil was supposed to lube the wheel bearings! I was 12 and learned quickly it also "lubed" the brake shoes.

06-06-2021, 02:43 PM	#19
HD Rider Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2018 Location: Glendive MT Posts: 155	Re: Ouestion..40 Ford brakes I use one like this. https://modelastore.com/tools/brakes...roduct_id=3370 Some have good luck with these, but V8 cars are torqued twice as much as model A's. https://modelastore.com/tools/brakes...roduct_id=3368

06-06-2021, 06:31 PM	#20
deuce_roadster Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Shelton, WA Posts: 3,800	Re: Ouestion..40 Ford brakes Yes, that is the style puller you should use on the old Ford rear hubs.