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Old 09-11-2021, 04:57 AM   #1
SUHRsc
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Default 1932 Roadster Frame Rail Sag

I noticed that my door gaps are tapered pretty good and someone added shims to make the latches work. The culprit I believe is the rear of the frame is bent down from the kickup, rearward. You can see a noticable budge above the axle. Has anyone else dealt with this somehow without removing the body? I believe this body was never off the frame and I'd prefer not to be the one to do it if I don't have to. Plus it would be nice if there is a solution that doesn't ruin the old (50's) paint. I realize the paint is in bad shape but the inside of the car and much of the chassis has never been painted, so leaving it all look old and grungy together has been my plan. Thanks for any advice.

*This is an early frame that never received the braces in this area.

Zach
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Old 09-11-2021, 05:03 AM   #2
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Default Re: 1932 Roadster Frame Rail Sag


Uneven Door Gap in 1932 Ford Roadster, the result of a suspected bent Frame.
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Old 09-11-2021, 06:13 AM   #3
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Default Re: 1932 Roadster Frame Rail Sag

Ouch!

People talk about getting it over a railroad track, chaining the high spot to the rail and then blocking on one side and jacking on the other. (I think that this was in reference to Model As that used to sag in the middle. They'd chain on the ends and jack in the middle. They never worried about the frame bending at the rear!)
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Old 09-11-2021, 06:57 AM   #4
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Default Re: 1932 Roadster Frame Rail Sag

I thought about putting an old repro spreader bar in the back and just letting it hang on jackstands on that bar for a while... I know heating at the bend would be the best solution but I really hate to do that ... Though it may come down to it ...same scinerio, sitting on the spreader bar and just heat the bottom of the kickup till the gap corrects itself. Maybe 1 torch on each side with a bottle jack at the door area to "catch" it ... Repainting a small spot on the frame in that area wouldn't be hugely noticable. Inevitably there will be various repairs throughout the car so maybe I am worrying too much.

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Ouch!

People talk about getting it over a railroad track, chaining the high spot to the rail and then blocking on one side and jacking on the other. (I think that this was in reference to Model As that used to sag in the middle. They'd chain on the ends and jack in the middle. They never worried about the frame bending at the rear!)
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Old 09-11-2021, 09:06 AM   #5
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Default Re: 1932 Roadster Frame Rail Sag

I think it would take more force that you would get from the weight of the car.
I think you need to remove the axle and fabricate a heavy hook that can latch around that lower rail and then using a heavy RSJ or Tubular beam jack at the rear and in front of the axle while resisting upward movement with the fabricated hook. If you were fancy with it you might be able to make something that would work while reaching around the axle.
I did the same to my 32 frame but it was a bare frame.
heat is your friend, and carefully placed hammer blows.
Last saturday's edition of Cold War Motors on YouTube shows Jim's Continental getting similar damage straightened out. that is on a proper frame rack though, but it does show the methods involved.
your other alternative, is to release the rear of the body and shim that up but you will be dealing with a big gap between the tank and the body. not a great look.
FWIW I had to do a similar job on my T-Bird to what they did on the continental. that was done with a big beam, chains and a heavy jack.
It might come down just by hanging from the spreader, it's worth a try in the first instance, and if no good then bring out the heavy equipment.
A good 4 post ramp with wheel free rails would be a godsend.
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Old 09-11-2021, 09:50 AM   #6
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Default Re: 1932 Roadster Frame Rail Sag

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I wouldn't use any heat on the frame unless you pull the gas tank out.
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Old 09-11-2021, 10:23 AM   #7
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Default Re: 1932 Roadster Frame Rail Sag

In my opinion, the area of the frame that is bent has been "work hardened", and if you attempt to straighten the frame without heat, the corrective measures will bend the frame in an adjacent area. Something to think about.
Tom
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Old 09-11-2021, 10:27 AM   #8
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Default Re: 1932 Roadster Frame Rail Sag

Thanks everyone, I guess heat is likely going to be the best option. I hate to remove the original bump stops but they may have to go.... I will remove the tank, it is pretty rusty anyways, Luckily I found a similarly painted old black tank that appears clean inside to put in it's place. This whole thing took the wind out of my sails on the car, I was hoping to get the motor back to running condition and just drive it around... That's how it always goes it seems.... In the end it's a neat old 32 Ford so it's still fun to work on....

Thanks!
Zach
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Old 09-11-2021, 10:34 AM   #9
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Default Re: 1932 Roadster Frame Rail Sag

Can you remove the rear suspension, cut the frame and bend it back to its original contour so the doors fit properly? Then you can "box" the frame on the inside and weld plates on the out side and rails.

The reality is that the body has to be removed from the frame so that the frame can either be replaced or repaired correctly, IMO.

Last edited by 19Fordy; 09-12-2021 at 12:05 PM.
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Old 09-11-2021, 10:43 AM   #10
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Default Re: 1932 Roadster Frame Rail Sag

IMHO; I would suggest taking it to a body shop with a frame rack. They would be able to chain & block the frame down where needed & then use hydrauic rams to slowly push on the frame in the places required to straighten the frame back just enough to close the door gap. Then you could add any stiffners or braces to keep it from sagging in the future. In any event a good frame/body shop should be able to look at it & advise you what would be the best way to fix the problem. Or just keep adding shims to get it to where you want the gap to be.
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Old 09-11-2021, 10:58 AM   #11
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Default Re: 1932 Roadster Frame Rail Sag

A not uncommon fate for many pre-reinforcement '32 frames, especially those with rear mounted spare tires. The combined weight of the spare and a full tank of gas and enough of a bump in the road to cause the rear axle to bottom out on the axle housings which became fulcrums to bend the frame and create bulges at the top of the kick ups.

Door alignment isn't the only problem this condition causes. There is now a serious amount of stress in the rear of your quarter panels and based on the service campaign (recall) that Ford launched in October, 1932, cracks may develop in the area adjacent to the lower back panel. At a minimum, you should undo the two rearmost body-to-frame attachments and substitute a longer bolt with a spring to absorb the stress as was done in the service campaign. If you have a copy of the Early Ford V8 Club's "The 1932 Ford Book", the details of that service campaign and the fix are shown on pages A-2-16-19 and 11-17.

Short of pulling the body off the frame, your best bet would be a shop with serious frame straightening equipment.
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Old 09-11-2021, 11:27 AM   #12
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Default Re: 1932 Roadster Frame Rail Sag

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IMHO; I would suggest taking it to a body shop with a frame rack. They would be able to chain & block the frame down where needed & then use hydrauic rams to slowly push on the frame in the places required to straighten the frame back just enough to close the door gap. Then you could add any stiffners or braces to keep it from sagging in the future. In any event a good frame/body shop should be able to look at it & advise you what would be the best way to fix the problem. Or just keep adding shims to get it to where you want the gap to be.
That is what I have done in the past.
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Old 09-11-2021, 12:05 PM   #13
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Default Re: 1932 Roadster Frame Rail Sag

Thank you everyone.
David, I saw mention of the spring\bolt and had been thinking that would be a good idea, I'm really surprised it's not already cracked there, now.

Thanks!
Zach


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Originally Posted by DavidG View Post
A not uncommon fate for many pre-reinforcement '32 frames, especially those with rear mounted spare tires. The combined weight of the spare and a full tank of gas and enough of a bump in the road to cause the rear axle to bottom out on the axle housings which became fulcrums to bend the frame and create bulges at the top of the kick ups.

Door alignment isn't the only problem this condition causes. There is now a serious amount of stress in the rear of your quarter panels and based on the service campaign (recall) that Ford launched in October, 1932, cracks may develop in the area adjacent to the lower back panel. At a minimum, you should undo the two rearmost body-to-frame attachments and substitute a longer bolt with a spring to absorb the stress as was done in the service campaign. If you have a copy of the Early Ford V8 Club's "The 1932 Ford Book", the details of that service campaign and the fix are shown on pages A-2-16-19 and 11-17.

Short of pulling the body off the frame, your best bet would be a shop with serious frame straightening equipment.
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Old 09-11-2021, 12:10 PM   #14
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Default Re: 1932 Roadster Frame Rail Sag

You're welcome.
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Old 09-12-2021, 10:28 AM   #15
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Default Re: 1932 Roadster Frame Rail Sag

I respectfully disagree. When the back of a 1932 Ford frame is distorted as described it would not produce the door gap problem as pictured. For the doors to be misaligned as pictured the center of the frame would have to have an upward distortion. IMHO the car was at some time driven hard over something like railroad tracks or a very tall speed bump. The first impact was probably at bottom of the center crossmember which bent the frame upward, (door gap problem) as it bounced off the tracks the back of the frame was bent by the hard landing.

Also, just to be clear, a sag or downward distortion in the middle of the frame would produce a wider gap at the bottom of the door opening and a tight gap or contact at the top.
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Old 09-12-2021, 11:40 AM   #16
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Default Re: 1932 Roadster Frame Rail Sag

Then the frame is perhaps bent in two places, the usual place above the kickups for the rear axle as witnessed by the bulges on the sides of the frame rails at those points and somewhere behind the cowl. What I would look for next to narrow the possibilities would be the pads/webbing beneath the cowl and radiator to confirm that they are originals or the same thickness as the originals and if so, whether the hood side panels have uneven gaps top to bottom either at the front or rear of the panels.


Ultimately, it may be necessary to pull the body off the frame, remove everything attached to the frame and have it checked/straightened on a jig that is '32 frame-specific such as that at the Ionia Hot Rod Shop in Michigan.
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Old 09-12-2021, 12:09 PM   #17
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Default Re: 1932 Roadster Frame Rail Sag

David G is 100% correct when he says:

"Ultimately, it may be necessary to pull the body off the frame, remove everything attached to the frame and have it checked/straightened on a jig that is '32 frame-specific such as that at the Ionia Hot Rod Shop in Michigan."
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Old 09-12-2021, 04:19 PM   #18
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Default Re: 1932 Roadster Frame Rail Sag

Check the postings by Neilinca with regards to his 32 pickup build , he did a frame rail straightening posting on his 32 by drilling some anchors in his garage floor, fabbed a couple of simple brackets that provided the means by which he could chain down the rails & provide the needed slowly applied force via a bottle jack.
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Old 09-12-2021, 04:58 PM   #19
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Default Re: 1932 Roadster Frame Rail Sag

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I respectfully disagree. When the back of a 1932 Ford frame is distorted as described it would not produce the door gap problem as pictured. For the doors to be misaligned as pictured the center of the frame would have to have an upward distortion. IMHO the car was at some time driven hard over something like railroad tracks or a very tall speed bump. The first impact was probably at bottom of the center crossmember which bent the frame upward, (door gap problem) as it bounced off the tracks the back of the frame was bent by the hard landing.

Also, just to be clear, a sag or downward distortion in the middle of the frame would produce a wider gap at the bottom of the door opening and a tight gap or contact at the top.
Interesting observation Tom.

I keep looking at the pin striping. It really seems like the frame is bent downward right at the "b" pillar/latch post. The pin striping is showing that part of the body is being pulled downward and back. I would not be surprised with Tom's assessment that the center is slightly peaked upward also.

Think of it this way, it's like when you break spaghetti before you put it in the pot. As you push down on the ends, the top section breaks while the bottom strands stay whole. Your lower gap looks good. Maybe a little tight at the very bottom. It certainly would seem the forces are pulling the top center of the body downward from both ends. That top of the door opening seems like it would be the weakest part of the body.

For this, you'll need to anchor the center of the frame while pushing up on both ends and see what happens. This would be a 2-3 hour job for a body shop and they can control the amount of force being applied to the frame.

I know you like to do things on your own, but for something like this, it may be the way to go. Plus, while on the frame machine, they can pull measurements to identify where and exactly how much the frame is bent.

Last edited by Tim Ayers; 09-12-2021 at 05:12 PM.
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Old 09-13-2021, 12:26 AM   #20
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Default Re: 1932 Roadster Frame Rail Sag

Put it on axle stands mounted on the frame , on a flat floor then get someone to supple equivalent measurements rails to the ground of there car , measure the body from body mount bolts etc to the cowl ,height of body at different points ,then compare them .Cowl front diagonal down to a rivet on the front of the Chassis rail ,You may get the measurements from the net .
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Old 09-13-2021, 05:47 AM   #21
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Default Re: 1932 Roadster Frame Rail Sag

You will need something like my toy in pic .
A couple laser levels and some plumbobs .
Plumbobs can be nothing more than nuts hanging on threads .
The important part is marking the thread EXACTLY the same distance from the bottom of the frame rails .

It can of course also be done with a tape measure .

Had that rack for well over 20 years now and you learn quick that fixing things that someone else attempted to fix is by far the biggest nightmare .
Many just start bending things and only make it worse .

These old frames bend real easy so be careful .

DO NOT start bending things until you have removed the shims meant to correct this issue .

From what I see here your frame is bent in more than one place .

If you were close to MPLS MN your issue would be easy to fix .
That is assuming the frame is not weakened by rust .
Good luck !!
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Old 09-13-2021, 08:14 AM   #22
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Default Re: 1932 Roadster Frame Rail Sag

Thank you very much everyone. I will have to really look into it farther and diagnose where the bend or bends may be. It's pretty obvious at the back, but I'll look for signs elsewhere. I have various other 32 frames to compare measurements.

Thanks!
Zach
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Old 09-13-2021, 09:38 AM   #23
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Default Re: 1932 Roadster Frame Rail Sag

The bends in the siderails will probably not be visible kinks like the rear bends . The gap looks like the hump may be under the rear of the cowl .
Again take out the shims first as you are getting false readings on the body with them in .

If you figure out where it is humped and are going to fix it yourself send a pm as I can walk you through the proper way to cure this .
Dave

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Originally Posted by SUHRsc View Post
Thank you very much everyone. I will have to really look into it farther and diagnose where the bend or bends may be. It's pretty obvious at the back, but I'll look for signs elsewhere. I have various other 32 frames to compare measurements.

Thanks!
Zach
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Old 09-13-2021, 10:04 AM   #24
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Default Re: 1932 Roadster Frame Rail Sag

In my experience the bulge shown is caused by the frame snubber hitting the top of the axle bells caused by hitting a bump in the road or a rear end collision (one side or both)
I would start by removing the rearmost body bolts and making sure the body is not/no longer being pulled down or held by those bolts.
Then check the flat area on the frame from the rear of the firewall leg to just before the kick up.
If the frame is flat or close to it most likely the damage is limited to the area around the bulge.
The severity of the bulge will help determine the fix.
A good rule to follow is to look at the space between the top of the gas tank and the rearmost edge of the body typically about 3/8".
Remember on both sides of the body you must have enough room to slide the rear frame horn covers in.
One method I used placed the car under a garage door opening we placed a brace (actually 2 6x6 treated posts) from the floor of the car to the top of the garage door framing and then with a rear spreader bar in place added another 6x6 across the rear of the frame.
We then jacked up the car at the end of the frame and monitored how the frame moved upward. Obviously the frame at the bulge was not going anywhere because of the brace to the building. A little heat (gas tank out please ) at the bulge and some judicious blows from a 3 pound sledge helped. Once we had the desired spacing at the gas tank we stopped. The bulge was just about gone too. There was some wrinkling on the flange where the rear snubber is but also barely noticeable. On an original unrestored car it was fine.
Obviously several other methods can be employed the best being in a frame fixture without the body mounted.
As far as the door gap issue I've never seen one do that due to the bulge in the frame.
It looks suspiciously like an over tightened adjustment bolt. That's the one at the firewall that goes through the eyelet at the edge of the cowl about 1 1/4 up from the frame.
That one should not be too loose or too tight ...no spacers washers or anything between the top of the frame and the bottom of the eyelet. Tightening or loosening that bolt will move the rear of the door up or down. Hope this helps
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Old 09-13-2021, 12:10 PM   #25
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Default Re: 1932 Roadster Frame Rail Sag

Thank you guys, I'll look into this all closer in a few days. I have 9 month old twins so not a ton of time to jump right in each day unfortunately.
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Old 09-13-2021, 07:00 PM   #26
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Default Re: 1932 Roadster Frame Rail Sag

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I have used the 32 Phil method more than once , the bulge in the frame can be caused by a rear impact to , We cant see that well but it looks like they have reversed into something and damaged the tops of the doors but that may be a allusion , As Phil said ,you can put a 8x6 up to a solid beam just south of the Kink .jack rear up plenty of tension one rail at a time , wack the side of the bolge ,do this with Axle stands in the front you may find you dont need heat ,Ted
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Old 09-14-2021, 06:48 PM   #27
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Default Re: 1932 Roadster Frame Rail Sag

You can use a length of ply cut to the frame profile and draw around it as a template compare that to a known good frame ,Ted
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Old 09-14-2021, 09:04 PM   #28
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Default Re: 1932 Roadster Frame Rail Sag

The attachment bolts at the front of the cowl pull the body down on the firewall seal. They can also have a minor effect on the door gaps. I don't think there is that much adjustment available. Even so, given the no cost low effort involved I would give it a try, loosen the bolts, rattle the car then check to see if anything changed.

I still believe the frame is bent, albeit very slightly. And I believe the damage is right under the doors exactly where the K member is located.

Also I don't think measuring is all that necessary to identify a very slight distortion. The objective is to straighten the frame with the body in place so the doors fit properly. Your finished when the door fit is pleasing to the eye.
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Old 09-14-2021, 09:48 PM   #29
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Default Re: 1932 Roadster Frame Rail Sag

I agree , Heres some pictures that could assist ,Ideas from various contributors are all usefull hopefully the Questioner can get any one of them to work for him ,
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File Type: jpg SANY1731.jpg (47.9 KB, 34 views)
File Type: jpg SANY1732.jpg (61.2 KB, 22 views)
File Type: jpg SANY1733.jpg (44.1 KB, 21 views)
File Type: jpg SANY1734.jpg (46.7 KB, 16 views)
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Old 09-20-2021, 09:43 AM   #30
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Default Re: 1932 Roadster Frame Rail Sag

Thank you, guys. I have things improved greatly... Still not perfect but I may just throw in the towl for now and call it good enough after a bit of shimming around at the cowl. Another issue that was amplifying the issue is that the b pillar area of the quarter was pushed inward causing the body line not to flow nicely down the length of the car. First I jacked the car up and removed the rearend. I put the entire car resting on the bumper irons on jack stands. And let gravity do the work for me, then smacked the side of the kickup at the bulge. A friend called and offered the idea that this worked well on his car. It did do quite a bit to help the problem (I loosened body bolts a bit before this)... Next I decided to tackle the B pillar issue...so I took out the whole seat and pushed from the base of the drivers side across to the top of the pass side, meanwhile pulling the bottom of the door with a ratchet strap. This work surprisingly well. It's still not perfect but it's a lot better. I started fooling with the adjustments at the cowl to try to overact the possible slight bend at the K member area. Again this hasn't gotten perfect but overall it's not too bad. I think after a bit more time spent with bolts and shims, I may just call it good enough. In the end it's just an old car and the paint is. Failing anyways. So it's a job to spend more time on down the road if I ever decide to make the car a bit nicer. It appears to only have ever been painted on the outside in the early 50s so it's largely all original underneath and I'm doing my best to preserve that appearance for now.
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Old 09-20-2021, 11:10 AM   #31
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Talking Re: 1932 Roadster Frame Rail Sag

Smacking the bulge with the rail under pressure is an old and good trick .

DO NOT HEAT the rails .
Many make that mistake and then wonder why it bends so easy in that spot after .

I cannot find it right now but I have a pic of a new 33 2d and the fit of the hood and door to the cowl is TERRIBLE !!!!
Again this was a new car .

Chances are good your car was not better new THAN NOW AFTER TWEAKING THINGS .

Quote:
Originally Posted by SUHRsc View Post
Thank you, guys. I have things improved greatly... Still not perfect but I may just throw in the towl for now and call it good enough after a bit of shimming around at the cowl. Another issue that was amplifying the issue is that the b pillar area of the quarter was pushed inward causing the body line not to flow nicely down the length of the car. First I jacked the car up and removed the rearend. I put the entire car resting on the bumper irons on jack stands. And let gravity do the work for me, then smacked the side of the kickup at the bulge. A friend called and offered the idea that this worked well on his car. It did do quite a bit to help the problem (I loosened body bolts a bit before this)... Next I decided to tackle the B pillar issue...so I took out the whole seat and pushed from the base of the drivers side across to the top of the pass side, meanwhile pulling the bottom of the door with a ratchet strap. This work surprisingly well. It's still not perfect but it's a lot better. I started fooling with the adjustments at the cowl to try to overact the possible slight bend at the K member area. Again this hasn't gotten perfect but overall it's not too bad. I think after a bit more time spent with bolts and shims, I may just call it good enough. In the end it's just an old car and the paint is. Failing anyways. So it's a job to spend more time on down the road if I ever decide to make the car a bit nicer. It appears to only have ever been painted on the outside in the early 50s so it's largely all original underneath and I'm doing my best to preserve that appearance for now.
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Old 09-20-2021, 12:53 PM   #32
joe 1950
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Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Green Bay Wi
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Default Re: 1932 Roadster Frame Rail Sag

I agree with Outlaw go find a body shop that has a modern frame rack with computer alignment my son has a body shop with a very good rack and can straighten just about anything shop around and just check it out
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