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Old 08-15-2017, 07:09 AM   #1
revkev6
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Default making a flathead have greater than 1:1 valve ratio??

Hey guys, I try to tuck little tidbits of speed equipment away in my head, especially if I think they are ingenious solutions! one of them is the Riley Multi-Lift as used in a model T. I'm sure many of you are familiar with them, but I was wondering if anyone ever tried to recreate this setup in a V8?? with the small base circle of the flathead cam, having the ability to increase the ratio would be beneficial but the complexity, weight and room required would cause other issues like valve and spring length. I'm sure a modern setup with roller tips would be a big advantage over the originals. I'm always brainstorming ways to build a fun flathead. if memory serves there are also a duration benefit when you increase the lift ratio.



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Old 08-15-2017, 10:09 AM   #2
drolston
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Default Re: making a flathead have greater than 1:1 valve ratio??

Clever contraption, but the stock cam is capable all of the valve lift available under the flathead V8 cylinder head. Also not sure this could be made to fit in the space available between the lifter and the guide; the T has more space. Finally, this mechanism has been around a long time; if it could be made to work effectively on a flathead, it would be in the Speedway catalog.
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Old 08-15-2017, 10:23 AM   #3
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Default Re: making a flathead have greater than 1:1 valve ratio??

Yes, there is/was such a contraption for the V8. I have never used them but have seen them.
Heads can be made or modified to accommodate any reasonable lift. However, that is not the problem. The problem is the port. If you read my book you will learn the flow falls off quickly after .350 and nearly stops any increase after .400. In fact there is a point where the valve can be COMPLETELY REMOVED and no increase occurs.
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Old 08-15-2017, 02:30 PM   #4
revkev6
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Default Re: making a flathead have greater than 1:1 valve ratio??

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Yes, there is/was such a contraption for the V8. I have never used them but have seen them.
Heads can be made or modified to accommodate any reasonable lift. However, that is not the problem. The problem is the port. If you read my book you will learn the flow falls off quickly after .350 and nearly stops any increase after .400. In fact there is a point where the valve can be COMPLETELY REMOVED and no increase occurs.
good to know that it has been tried... as with everything flathead it seems that over the last 85 years everything has been done at some point!!

I wasn't thinking so much in terms of gross lift... but things like ramp profiles that become a problem with small diameter camshafts. many guys go to radius lifters and roller setups... which are prone to break or wear out the lifter bores aren't they??

JWL, I know you have said it before but do you have a link for your book?? been meaning to buy it. i've asked my wife to get it for me for my birthday and christmas to no avail. she thinks I want clothes and gift cards to home depot

think I'm going to get an 8ba motor from my brother and start a gathering parts and ideas for a build soon. heres pics of the motor I just pulled down to repaint and replace the gaskets in after 25 years spent in my roadster... come to find out it had 30 inches of weld along the pan rail! she's going back together for another 25 years if I can help it!!
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Old 08-15-2017, 02:51 PM   #5
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Default Re: making a flathead have greater than 1:1 valve ratio??

The trick with a flathead cam is: to have the valve open over 350 for a longer period of time, Thus we have cams that lift over .400"so the valve is over .350 for a longer period of time. Another benefit of a very larg valve is the area of the valve opening and removing as much material from the top of the port, where it does the most good. At this point you've achieved all the flow increase your going to get from a stock port. However there is still one thing that still prevents an increase in flow and that's the valve pocket Bowl. Special guides have been designed to do this, but the actual shape of the new guide creates a flow collision at the mouth of the valve. A new port would have a bottom shaped just like the top and now flow interference at the valve is reduced. And thus we've created a cathedral port. The ideal port is a path from the intake to the top of the piston, with a valve in it to turn flow on and off. Putzing with flow benches can destroy your brain.
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Old 08-15-2017, 02:58 PM   #6
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Default Re: making a flathead have greater than 1:1 valve ratio??

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol' Ron View Post
The trick with a flathead cam is: to have the valve open over 350 for a longer period of time, Thus we have cams that lift over .400"so the valve is over .350 for a longer period of time. Another benefit of a very larg valve is the area of the valve opening and removing as much material from the top of the port, where it does the most good. At this point you've achieved all the flow increase your going to get from a stock port. However there is still one thing that still prevents an increase in flow and that's the valve pocket Bowl. Special guides have been designed to do this, but the actual shape of the new guide creates a flow collision at the mouth of the valve. A new port would have a bottom shaped just like the top and now flow interference at the valve is reduced. And thus we've created a cathedral port. The ideal port is a path from the intake to the top of the piston, with a valve in it to turn flow on and off. Putzing with flow benches can destroy your brain.
As always, I read with awe when Ol'Ron or JWL chime in.
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Old 08-15-2017, 03:12 PM   #7
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Default Re: making a flathead have greater than 1:1 valve ratio??

Make sure you have a copy of both O'Rons and JWL books. Amazing flathead information. Dave/Green Bay
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Old 08-15-2017, 03:21 PM   #8
revkev6
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Default Re: making a flathead have greater than 1:1 valve ratio??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol' Ron View Post
The trick with a flathead cam is: to have the valve open over 350 for a longer period of time, Thus we have cams that lift over .400"so the valve is over .350 for a longer period of time. Another benefit of a very larg valve is the area of the valve opening and removing as much material from the top of the port, where it does the most good. At this point you've achieved all the flow increase your going to get from a stock port. However there is still one thing that still prevents an increase in flow and that's the valve pocket Bowl. Special guides have been designed to do this, but the actual shape of the new guide creates a flow collision at the mouth of the valve. A new port would have a bottom shaped just like the top and now flow interference at the valve is reduced. And thus we've created a cathedral port. The ideal port is a path from the intake to the top of the piston, with a valve in it to turn flow on and off. Putzing with flow benches can destroy your brain.
Ron, I've been using the google machine.. which is WAY worse than the flow machine because you're not learning anything the hard way.

I've got the plans for a shop vac flow bench with the plate to calibrate it's output.. next motor I build is getting some time on it.

I know you spend lots of time over the years working on the bench... but I also read in one of your posts that your biggest actual dyno run was 175hp or so?? is there a recipe for a 200hp NA flathead?? I know joe abbin has the 300hp blown flathead book. another thing on my bucket list... blown flathead! while not completely traditional, robbing a blower off a late model jag has been nagging my mind. the speedway 4bbl manifold with the carb plate removed looks suspiciously like a blower manifold to me... or make my own.
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Old 08-15-2017, 04:37 PM   #9
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Default Re: making a flathead have greater than 1:1 valve ratio??

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JWL, I know you have said it before but do you have a link for your book?? been meaning to buy it. i've asked my wife to get it for me for my birthday and christmas to no avail.
You can get it from several suppliers, VanPelt being one of them. You can also get it through Amazon, but believe there are issues with the royalties? Threw in Ol Rons book as well. In order to get much more HP out of a flathead you have to start doing things that veer away from what makes a flathead a flathead IMHO. So, I don't see that point, but that's just me. To me the fun is getting the most out of a flathead as designed and reasonably modified (my definition of what is reasonable, LOL ).
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Old 08-15-2017, 07:31 PM   #10
Ol' Ron
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Default Re: making a flathead have greater than 1:1 valve ratio??

I don't know how to ger 200 hp from an un blown flathead on gas.I'm sure others have done it, and I've seen some real wild flatheads that didn't. I helped A friend build a 294 blown flathead street engine. Other than the stroker Kit the engine had very little done to it. I did my usual street port job abd 1.6 intake and A cam Tex Blower cam (L-100B). Engine produced 235 HP @ 4500 (Red line) and 300 ft tq at 300 all this at 5 lbs of boost. Makes a nice street engine, and proves a point. THink about it.
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Old 08-16-2017, 01:06 AM   #11
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Default Re: making a flathead have greater than 1:1 valve ratio??

Quote:
Originally Posted by revkev6 View Post


think I'm going to get an 8ba motor from my brother and start a gathering parts and ideas for a build soon. heres pics of the motor I just pulled down to repaint and replace the gaskets in after 25 years spent in my roadster... come to find out it had 30 inches of weld along the pan rail! she's going back together for another 25 years if I can help it!!
But...But.....Everyone knows you can't weld cast iron! It will immediately crack!
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Old 08-16-2017, 04:50 AM   #12
JWL
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Default Re: making a flathead have greater than 1:1 valve ratio??

Sources for my book include:

Van Pelt Sales
Mac's Antique Auto Parts
Amazon

Or you can contact me directly at [email protected]

Thanks for asking.
JWL
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Old 08-16-2017, 07:36 PM   #13
revkev6
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Default Re: making a flathead have greater than 1:1 valve ratio??

Ok.. since the multi lift has been done... let's throw out my next idea. Instead of relieving the block has anyone tried adding material to the deck to make a curved surface. I picture it matching the angle of the bottom of the valve making an arch leading into the cylinder. Of course you would need a matching head and either a popup or hi done piston to make this work. The purpose would be to keep high velocity flow through the transfer area while maintaining compression. This would be a bolt on modification the way I picture it
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Old 08-17-2017, 09:00 AM   #14
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Default Re: making a flathead have greater than 1:1 valve ratio??

I think kenny kloss tried it . There was a pic in a book.
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Old 08-17-2017, 09:54 AM   #15
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Default Re: making a flathead have greater than 1:1 valve ratio??

Believe you would be hard pressed to come up with an idea that hasn't already been tried on a flathead!
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Old 08-17-2017, 10:37 AM   #16
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Default Re: making a flathead have greater than 1:1 valve ratio??

Speaking of Kenny Kloth, does anybody know what happened to him and his very fast and powerfull '49 Merc?
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Old 08-17-2017, 05:53 PM   #17
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Default Re: making a flathead have greater than 1:1 valve ratio??

I've played with a hydraulic valve lifter design that I call a jack lifter. In theory small plungers (3 or four) surrounding a central one hit a positive stop causing the contained oil in the lifter to push the central plunger up relative to the rising lifter. On a stock cam profile rate of lift and total lift are increased. A relatively minor addition to the Tod block design can facilitate plumbing oil to the lifter bores making even common hydraulic lifters possible.

Ever been done??

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Old 08-17-2017, 07:43 PM   #18
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Default Re: making a flathead have greater than 1:1 valve ratio??

I think the Lincolns used hydraulic lifters, but no idea if they were tried in the V8.
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