The Ford Barn

zzlegend · 08-04-2010, 05:24 PM

Very nice George. Hope you keep us updated until its completed. Mark.

George Miller · 08-04-2010, 08:14 PM

Will do

George Miller · 08-04-2010, 08:20 PM

What is approx c/r you're shooting for?
Would this work on a "driver" and approx cost if making more than one?
__________________________________________________ _______________

Approx c/r 7-1
Would this work on a drive. yes
don't know the cost This will be the only one.

Larry Brumfield · 08-04-2010, 10:13 PM

Hey George, I think you're worth about 75 dollars an hour.

Keep track of all your hours until you are completely finished and see what it comes out to. Should be interesting.

Larry B.

P.S. I'd like to see an overhead made with Chrysler's Hemi design.

George Miller · 08-05-2010, 06:28 AM

Re: The making of a cylinder head
Hey George, I think you're worth about 75 dollars an hour.

Keep track of all your hours until you are completely finished and see what it comes out to. Should be interesting.

__________________________________________________ ______________________

Larry That is a good idea already have 14 hours.
Maybe hemi next time

tuneman · 08-05-2010, 07:00 AM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Beautiful work
My question is what gasket are you going to use
to seal the head to the block? This looks like pretty simple straight forward machineing work! Might have to geta couple of my friends and try this. Also where would i get al block ,and what would be cost?

BRENT in 10-uh-C · 08-05-2010, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larry Brumfield

P.S. I'd like to see an overhead made with Chrysler's Hemi design.

Do you really think it would perform that great? I was under the impression that hemispherical combustion chambered engines actually made their horsepower at higher RPMs, --which the typical Model A/B short block is not fond of. I would think a head copied from the Vortec design which creates its power in the low to mid-range (4k or less) would be better suited. Maybe not??

.

Flathead · 08-05-2010, 09:57 AM

A Flathead can make good power at low RPM too!

MikeK · 08-05-2010, 11:45 AM

With no castings and no multi-axis CNC how will you get flow shape contours into the ports? That would be an awful lot of die-sinker type of hand work, measuring, and matching with burrs and an air grinder.

Frank Miller · 08-05-2010, 11:52 AM

Brent,
It is my understanding that the hemi allowed for bigger valves in a given cylinder diameter. I guess this would be advantageous at high RPM. But the hemi is really not a good design as far as combustion and flame travel are concerned. This is one reason Harley went to a bathtub design in the Evo motor when it discontinued the shovelhead. Builders of old shovelheads go to a 2 plug per cylinder configuration to compensate for this. The new Dodge hemi's have 2 plugs per cylinder also. I think it is a marketing thing more than an efficient design. Of course I would imagine that all out drag racing at 1 rpm before everything self destructs is a different story.

Larry Brumfield · 08-05-2010, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Do you really think it would perform that great? I was under the impression that hemispherical combustion chambered engines actually made their horsepower at higher RPMs, --which the typical Model A/B short block is not fond of. I would think a head copied from the Vortec design which creates its power in the low to mid-range (4k or less) would be better suited. Maybe not??

.

In my opinion the hemispherical combustion chamber is the best design for OHV heads regardless of the RPM. The design was used on engines in the late 1940's and earlier. Chrysler engineers proved in a lab experiment on a one cylinder engine that the Hemi design with its superior air flow and a compression ratio of 7:1 beat the L-head which required a compression ratio of 10:1 to achieve the same results.

Of course we're talking about an OHV but it also relates to flat head design. The above is an example of what I continually explain to people when they tell me that my 5.9 head or my 6.5 head must not produce as much power as old so-in-so's 6 to 1 head or 7 to 1 head or whatever simply because the compression ratio number is bigger. Not so. The air flow can make all the difference to a point where the compression ratio numbers are practically meaningless.

Of course the best power is not the result of the head alone. Valve size, cam design, manifold design, carburetor size, etc., etc. all combine to determine the ultimate outcome.

BUT, the head's combustion chamber design and air flow characteristics must nurture it all to make it happen.

Larry B.

BRENT in 10-uh-C · 08-05-2010, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flathead

A Flathead can make good power at low RPM too!

Are you implying the same as an OHV?

You may be right on that Larry as I don't have much experience in hemi chamber design except to know what we observed in kart racing.

George Miller · 08-05-2010, 02:08 PM

cc the heads, they are about 9-1 a little more than I want. Started the intake ports. They are a little hard because we have push rod holes and head bolts in the way. But that is what makes it fun.

George Miller · 08-05-2010, 02:14 PM

With no castings and no multi-axis CNC how will you get flow shape contours into the ports? That would be an awful lot of die-sinker type of hand work, measuring, and matching with burrs and an air grinder.
__________________________________________________ ___

What you say is true, but my head comes apart so I can machine it when they are apart. I used dowel pins so it can be put back together like it was before it is taken apart.

George Miller · 08-05-2010, 02:20 PM

Of course the best power is not the result of the head alone. Valve size, cam design, manifold design, carburetor size, etc., etc. all combine to determine the ultimate outcome.
__________________________________________________ ______________________

Yes it takes it all to make it run fast. I agree getting the air in the chambers does the most good. If you get more air in does that raise the running cylinder pressure. I'm just a old country boy, wasn't that good in school.

MrTube · 08-05-2010, 02:35 PM

Arn't Duesenberg J heads from the 20's and 30's also hemispherical as well as many air plane engines?

To my knowledge Chrysler came up with the name "hemi" not the actual design.

hardtimes · 08-05-2010, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Miller

Of course the best power is not the result of the head alone. Valve size, cam design, manifold design, carburetor size, etc., etc. all combine to determine the ultimate outcome.
__________________________________________________ ______________________

Yes it takes it all to make it run fast. I agree getting the air in the chambers does the most good. If you get more air in does that raise the running cylinder pressure. I'm just a old country boy, wasn't that good in school.

George,
Is this easier than making a banger head from a V8 head? I've spoken to Frick and he required big $$$$ for any of a dozen different OHV heads that he showed me. Your work/skill makes us envious. Keep up your great work! Rick

Larry Brumfield · 08-05-2010, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Miller

Brent,
It is my understanding that the hemi allowed for bigger valves in a given cylinder diameter. I guess this would be advantageous at high RPM. But the hemi is really not a good design as far as combustion and flame travel are concerned. This is one reason Harley went to a bathtub design in the Evo motor when it discontinued the shovelhead. Builders of old shovelheads go to a 2 plug per cylinder configuration to compensate for this. The new Dodge hemi's have 2 plugs per cylinder also. I think it is a marketing thing more than an efficient design. Of course I would imagine that all out drag racing at 1 rpm before everything self destructs is a different story.

Hi Frank

There have been three generations of Hemi's built by Chrysler. The last one you speak of with two plugs was done mainly to satisfy the environmentalists (as they contemplate environmental issues and what's best for you and me while smoking their reefers). The two plugs shorten the flame travel which is supposed to lead to more consistent combustion and reduce emissions.

The combustion and flame travel in the Hemi are excellent. Moreover, the hemispherical or bowl shape allows the arrangement of the valves to be at an angle and this allows for huge air flow gains and also larger valves. It is, however, more sensitive to detonation because there is minimal quench but this can be corrected with higher octane. In addition, to help with complete burning the spark plug is centrally located so the flame will uniformly burn around the hemispherical shape. Also, the hemi or bowl shape allows the use of dome shaped pistons to adjust the compression ratio.

Larry B.

P.S. Are you still working with your b buddy at work? I'd be interested to know what he thinks of the current President, czars, etc.. But no discussion here, thanks.

George Miller · 08-05-2010, 02:48 PM

My question is what gasket are you going to use
to seal the head to the block? This looks like pretty simple straight forward machineing work! Might have to geta couple of my friends and try this. Also where would i get al block ,and what would be cost?
__________________________________________________ __
Go on line to SM speedy metals or call 1-866-938-6061
price 6061-T6511 about $400 7075-T6 about $860
I might try a head gasket from Miller high speed, Like the name.
Most of the time I use soft copper and O ring the head.

George Miller · 08-05-2010, 03:00 PM

Is this easier than making a banger head from a V8 head? I've spoken to Frick and he required big $$$$ for any of a dozen different OHV heads that he showed me. Your work/skill makes us envious. Keep up your great work! Rick
__________________________________________________ ____________________

Good question, I'm not sure it is not easy putting a olds 455 head on a, A engine. you have to move the mounting bolts which end up in the water jacket. Same way with the push rod holes, weld in a spacer block and stop exhaust from going through the center of the head.

Bill Stipe Put a chev v8 head on a Model A he had to do about the same.
We will find out when we are done which is easier. I'm thinking it is a 80 hour job to make this head. That is why Frick has to have big money.

08-04-2010, 05:24 PM	#21
zzlegend Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Reseda, Calif. Posts: 2,188	Re: The making of a cylinder head Very nice George. Hope you keep us updated until its completed. Mark.

08-04-2010, 08:14 PM	#22
George Miller Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: NC Posts: 2,975	Re: The making of a cylinder head Will do

08-04-2010, 08:20 PM	#23
George Miller Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: NC Posts: 2,975	Re: The making of a cylinder head What is approx c/r you're shooting for? Would this work on a "driver" and approx cost if making more than one? __________________________________________________ _______________ Approx c/r 7-1 Would this work on a drive. yes don't know the cost This will be the only one. Last edited by George Miller; 08-05-2010 at 06:29 AM. Reason: mistake

08-04-2010, 10:13 PM	#24
Larry Brumfield Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 351	Re: The making of a cylinder head Hey George, I think you're worth about 75 dollars an hour. Keep track of all your hours until you are completely finished and see what it comes out to. Should be interesting. Larry B. P.S. I'd like to see an overhead made with Chrysler's Hemi design.

08-05-2010, 06:28 AM	#25
George Miller Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: NC Posts: 2,975	Re: The making of a cylinder head Re: The making of a cylinder head Hey George, I think you're worth about 75 dollars an hour. Keep track of all your hours until you are completely finished and see what it comes out to. Should be interesting. __________________________________________________ ______________________ Larry That is a good idea already have 14 hours. Maybe hemi next time Last edited by George Miller; 08-05-2010 at 06:30 AM. Reason: add more

08-05-2010, 07:00 AM	#26
tuneman Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 264	Re: The making of a cylinder head Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Beautiful work My question is what gasket are you going to use to seal the head to the block? This looks like pretty simple straight forward machineing work! Might have to geta couple of my friends and try this. Also where would i get al block ,and what would be cost?

08-05-2010, 09:57 AM	#28
Flathead Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Southern Maine Posts: 1,498	Re: The making of a cylinder head A Flathead can make good power at low RPM too!

08-05-2010, 11:45 AM	#29
MikeK Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Windy City Posts: 2,919	Re: The making of a cylinder head With no castings and no multi-axis CNC how will you get flow shape contours into the ports? That would be an awful lot of die-sinker type of hand work, measuring, and matching with burrs and an air grinder.

08-05-2010, 11:52 AM	#30
Frank Miller Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Auburn, MA Posts: 2,106	Re: The making of a cylinder head Brent, It is my understanding that the hemi allowed for bigger valves in a given cylinder diameter. I guess this would be advantageous at high RPM. But the hemi is really not a good design as far as combustion and flame travel are concerned. This is one reason Harley went to a bathtub design in the Evo motor when it discontinued the shovelhead. Builders of old shovelheads go to a 2 plug per cylinder configuration to compensate for this. The new Dodge hemi's have 2 plugs per cylinder also. I think it is a marketing thing more than an efficient design. Of course I would imagine that all out drag racing at 1 rpm before everything self destructs is a different story.

08-05-2010, 02:14 PM	#34
George Miller Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: NC Posts: 2,975	Re: The making of a cylinder head With no castings and no multi-axis CNC how will you get flow shape contours into the ports? That would be an awful lot of die-sinker type of hand work, measuring, and matching with burrs and an air grinder. __________________________________________________ ___ What you say is true, but my head comes apart so I can machine it when they are apart. I used dowel pins so it can be put back together like it was before it is taken apart.

08-05-2010, 02:20 PM	#35
George Miller Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: NC Posts: 2,975	Re: The making of a cylinder head Of course the best power is not the result of the head alone. Valve size, cam design, manifold design, carburetor size, etc., etc. all combine to determine the ultimate outcome. __________________________________________________ ______________________ Yes it takes it all to make it run fast. I agree getting the air in the chambers does the most good. If you get more air in does that raise the running cylinder pressure. I'm just a old country boy, wasn't that good in school.

08-05-2010, 02:35 PM	#36
MrTube Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: New Jersey Posts: 1,471	Re: The making of a cylinder head Arn't Duesenberg J heads from the 20's and 30's also hemispherical as well as many air plane engines? To my knowledge Chrysler came up with the name "hemi" not the actual design.

08-05-2010, 02:48 PM	#39
George Miller Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: NC Posts: 2,975	Re: The making of a cylinder head My question is what gasket are you going to use to seal the head to the block? This looks like pretty simple straight forward machineing work! Might have to geta couple of my friends and try this. Also where would i get al block ,and what would be cost? __________________________________________________ __ Go on line to SM speedy metals or call 1-866-938-6061 price 6061-T6511 about $400 7075-T6 about $860 I might try a head gasket from Miller high speed, Like the name. Most of the time I use soft copper and O ring the head. Last edited by George Miller; 08-05-2010 at 03:24 PM. Reason: forgot some thing

08-05-2010, 03:00 PM	#40
George Miller Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: NC Posts: 2,975	Re: The making of a cylinder head Is this easier than making a banger head from a V8 head? I've spoken to Frick and he required big $$$$ for any of a dozen different OHV heads that he showed me. Your work/skill makes us envious. Keep up your great work! Rick __________________________________________________ ____________________ Good question, I'm not sure it is not easy putting a olds 455 head on a, A engine. you have to move the mounting bolts which end up in the water jacket. Same way with the push rod holes, weld in a spacer block and stop exhaust from going through the center of the head. Bill Stipe Put a chev v8 head on a Model A he had to do about the same. We will find out when we are done which is easier. I'm thinking it is a 80 hour job to make this head. That is why Frick has to have big money.