Cam clean-up?

[GB SISSON]

I went up into my attic over the shop last night and retrieved this 8CM cam. I was given a merc engine that had been rebuilt many years ago and overheated badly on the initial drive. 3 or 4 cracks. I used the crank back in the 90s, but the cam was still where I left it. I have since found a std merc 4"er and got it turned. Question: Can I clean this cam up at home with scotchbrite or something? The journals look like they will clean easily, but lobes not so much. I continue to collect parts for a 255 to replace the 221 in my truck based woodie, a Heavy car for sure.

[Bored&Stroked]

That is too much rust for my liking - as you'll have a lot of pitting on the lobes. Maybe have Pete1 regrind it for you . . . maybe even a bit more performance into it.

[Russ/40]

Hard to say now. Give it a brisk rub on a wire wheel and then show us the extent of pitting. Could go either way .....

[deuce_roadster]

I would think to be usable it would need to be reground. Probably could be done to 8CM specs. Cam Grinders is in Seattle, Delta in Tacoma. Might be cheaper to find a better one.
Good Luck!

[Desoto291Hemi]

Pete is in Washington and does an awesome job .
It will look almost new when he gets done

In my opinion,,,,those lobes look pretty darn rough,,,,,and will in turn be very rough on the lifters riding on them as well

Tommy

[bobH]

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To use a phrase that I got from Joe Mac (long ago owner of Ford Obsolete, on Signal Hill, and also trans rebuilder during retirement years), thems pits are good for holding extra oil, for better lubrication. lol

[VeryTangled]

Greetings Everyone. GB it does look a little weary in the current condition. But maybe this helps...

Option 1 - It's Junk - Whatever you do can't make it worse.

Option 2 - It's gonna need regrinding - You probably can't remove enough if you don't get medieval.

Option 3 - It's ugly now, but wait - Hit it with something? You can always go back to 2 and 1.

Would you guys use Evaporust/Rust911? Would the 'blackening' be a problem?

Then something to see where the pitting ends? Scotch-Brite is pretty gentle, and you can step up/down in 'grit.' A wire wheel sounded like an okay suggestion, but carefully.

https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/company-...94857497&rt=r3

[WABOOM]

As my grandpa would say... "now it's a pry- bar"

[Pete]

...

[jimTN]

chuck it in a lathe and hold the steel wool to it with penetrating oil.

[GB SISSON]

Only have a wood lathe.... No pits on pump lobe or any I can see on the journals, ran it hard onto my wire wheel. Still some deep pits, so looks like a regrind. The woodie is no hotrod, but it's home turf is hill country. No interest in a 'lopey idle'. I don't even get why that is supposed to be cool. My engine experience comes from the one lung engine and antique tractor world. I would tow all my machinery to the yearly meet behind my 38 tonner with the 59ab and merc crank. SOOOO many old timers at the show only wanted to listen to the flathead V8 idle. I had to warn the newbies that that silent engine was actually running and stop putting your fingers so near the fan blade. In review, I love the added torque/hill climbing of the merc crank, but no interest in extra HP and no interest in hard to adjust lifters from the small base circle, special wrenches, shorter lifter bore etc. I will take some pics of the wire wheeled cam, but as usual my 10 year old phone is dead on my truck seat......

[VeryTangled]

Originally Posted by GB SISSON

I don't even get why that is supposed to be cool. My engine experience comes from the one lung engine and antique tractor world. I would tow all my machinery to the yearly meet behind my 38 tonner with the 59ab and merc crank. SOOOO many old timers at the show only wanted to listen to the flathead V8 idle. I had to warn the newbies that that silent engine was actually running and stop putting your fingers so near the fan blade.

Brother from another mother from another seashore?

P.S. I'm so delighted that my 8 year old phone just got a NEW BATTERY this past week and it perked it up so well. Anybody's 3 year old phone got that option? I think I'm buying another battery so I can use it a few years from now?!?

[GB SISSON]

Originally Posted by VeryTangled

Brother from another mother from the other ocean?

P.S. I'm so delighted that my 8 year old phone just got a NEW BATTERY this past week and it perked it up so well. Anybody's 3 year old phone got that option?

Brother from another mother? Duh.

[VeryTangled]

Originally Posted by GB SISSON

Brother from another mother? Duh.

We have similar opinions about people who put their fingers near fan blades? And who doesn't love fire-miss-miss-miss-fire?

[GB SISSON]

My 6" bore, 12" stroke goes miss, miss, miss for 30 seconds before it hits like a cannon and coasts for another 30 seconds. I reground the cam (one lobe) with my belt sander. The intake valve has no cam. It is atmospheric. Has a light spring and when the piston is on intake it just sort of chatters and draws in what it needs. It is a simple check valve..

[GB SISSON]

OK, my phone charged up but it's way past bedtime.... Some pics of the good, the bad and the ugly. Once it's reground is an 8cm cam any different than any other?

[cas3]

GB...you are my hero. I'll bet you clean it up and run it until you are toes up

[cas3]

I believe the 8cm has the better low end torque required when mercs were heavy, and the new trend was automatic trannys. good cam for the woody on the hilly island

[Mart]

I don't think even I would try and run that one, GB. Do you not have any other potential cores to hand?

Mart.

[PeteVS]

There was an article in Hot Rod a while back that explained (and I don't know if this applies to OHV's only or all engines) that the lobes on the cam have a very slight taper when viewed from the side and lifters have a slightly spherical shape on the ends. This allows the lifter to contact the cam somewhere off center, causing the lifter to rotate, a bit like a ring and pinion. Thus there is really no sliding contact. If both surfaces were flat, they would both be wiped out fairly quickly, especially with the higher spring forces found in OHV engines.

Having said this, I'd say give it a go! There might be enough taper to get the required action.

[Ol' Ron]

Most shops have crank polishers, I'd try that on several lpbes just to see what the lobe looked like, I don't think pitting would hurt the lifter just hold alittle more oil. I sue 45 LB spring pressure on all my street engines, including the L100. Most street engines never see 4k revs. JMO
Gramps

[Bored&Stroked]

No chance that I would run it "as is" - have it reground and know that the lobes are right and that you're putting a part in your engine that won't wear out . . . or wear things out that rub against it - the lifters.

I'd contact Pete and see what his thoughts are as far as a good profile . . .

[5851a]

I wouldn't want to try that in an engine I was rebuilding. There must be someone that has an 8CM left over from when they wanted a lumpy idle.

[GB SISSON]

I get it and don't want to risk using it as is.... I bought the std 4" crank over in Friday Harbor for 300 bucks. I think it was like 250.00 to have it ground. I think it's worth sending the cam out for a pro job. I will contact Pete. Just a side note with Ol Ron's comment and my old hit n miss. This one lunger was stuck solid when it was given to me in '87. Heat, diesel, heat, rinse, repeat I eventually got it free. I bought a 6" hone and started honing it, but there were some pretty bad pits in the cyl wall. I called a guy I had met through Hemmings Motor News to discuss this matter. He said as long as the pits don't connect, just randomly occurring, they didn't hurt a thing, just a bunch of little oil resevoirs. He recounted that years back when racing air cooled VWs they would dimple the cylinder walls with a dremel tool for just that reason. I run this engine for four days in August at about 75 rpm and no load. Different story than what I hope to do with the woodie. My wife has never been to Yellowstone!

[cas3]

Great lookin truck GB, take the wife to Yellowstone in it, remember life is short, grab it while you can

[40 Deluxe]

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Originally Posted by GB SISSON

I get it and don't want to risk using it as is.... I bought the std 4" crank over in Friday Harbor for 300 bucks. I think it was like 250.00 to have it ground. I think it's worth sending the cam out for a pro job. I will contact Pete. Just a side note with Ol Ron's comment and my old hit n miss. This one lunger was stuck solid when it was given to me in '87. Heat, diesel, heat, rinse, repeat I eventually got it free. I bought a 6" hone and started honing it, but there were some pretty bad pits in the cyl wall. I called a guy I had met through Hemmings Motor News to discuss this matter. He said as long as the pits don't connect, just randomly occurring, they didn't hurt a thing, just a bunch of little oil resevoirs. He recounted that years back when racing air cooled VWs they would dimple the cylinder walls with a dremel tool for just that reason. I run this engine for four days in August at about 75 rpm and no load. Different story than what I hope to do with the woodie. My wife has never been to Yellowstone!

make sure you get the actual 8CM grind and not some generic flathead grind. There are differences!

[Mart]

[sidevalve8ba]

Originally Posted by cas3

Great lookin truck GB, take the wife to Yellowstone in it, remember life is short, grab it while you can

cas3, you said a mouthful there!

[Russ/40]

Photo #1 tells me...... no go! Way beyond garbage.

[Jack E/NJ]

You mean this one with all the little oil reservoirs that GB pointed out? Like PeteVS, I'd give it a go anyway. Jack E/NJ

[tubman]

I like the "oil reservoirs" on the lobes.

[GB SISSON]

Dang it you guys really know how to confuse a guy. Are these cams hardened on the surface, like maybe I'm past the hard outer shell? This photo depicts a quick pass on a pretty coarse wire wheel on a bench grinder. I have 2 sets of adj lifters, one from a swap-meet, the other from an 8ba I tore down. They look old and hollow and 'johnson-like'. I did my 5 lb-lbs flour sack test (60 inch lbs) and about half need a squeeze in the vice. A sharp file on the bottom says they are very hard on that surface...My jailbars have fat fenders and going back 'in' if original parts fail is miserable. My McGuyver side says run the pits, but my 67 year old aching back and shoulder side says use some covid check to do this part right. My current project has enough McGuyver to make the TV version break out in a cold sweat.

[cadillac512]

Hi G.B.
My 2cents....listen to your aching back and shoulders. You'll be glad you did.

[Ol' Ron]

Best lubricated cam on the market, last forever.
Gramps
PS Polish it first!!

[GB SISSON]

So you CAN polish a turd?

[Mart]

If you're havering towards giving it a go, the base circles are not loaded at all so can have pits, the opening side of the lobe is most heavily loaded, so ideally you'd like any pitting there to be minimal. the closing side of the lobe is loaded, but not so heavily so may tolerate heavier pitting.
So how does it stand up to a close inspection of just the lobes, with an emphasis on the opening side?

Mart.

[Ol' Ron]

I except your criticism, However, I think it's based on aesthetics, not mechanical facts. The declivities offer no impairment to the lifters. Aesthetics is the most expensive part of this hobby and offers little or no improvement to power or economy. I just like to help people.
Gramps

[Russ/40]

When pitting is so extreme as to cross the contact surface, your not talking oil carrying any longer, your talking running a rasp on your lifters. It's crazy!

[Ol' Ron]

It's obvious to the amount of pitting you can except. I also do this to rustry crankshafts as well. I suppose it's a judgment call, which is based on experience.
Gramps
Send me the cam,I;ll clean it uo and we canconsider if it good enough to run, or just a turd??
No Charge.
G

[bobH]

Way to go, Ron.... My experience (though not as much as yours), agrees with yours. My only caveat is that I would never used it on a customer job. But, for myself, what the heck. I've had REALLY good luck using sub-standard, pitted parts, as long as they were genuine, original, Ford-script parts.

[GB SISSON]

I just got in from a jobsite and my wife is cooking up some porkchops (with the fat trimmed off).... Dang that cardiovascular disease. I will polish this turd over the weekend and get some good pics of the loaded side of the lobes. Gotta say this is kind of fun as it progresses.

[Ol' Ron]

The cutomer is "King" you offer him your experience and suggestions, he makes the decisions. If you don't like them you can refuse the job, Bue determines what goes into an engine, he pays you to do it.. I've refuse to relieve a block or use one that was relieved, except a factory 59"L" block

[Ronnieroadster]

Considering how much work it takes to install the valve train in a flathead why would anyone consider using any thing like this cam. But heck if your sure its not worth the effort to find a better cam and your not concerned you may be taking the engine apart when this causes a problem then just go for it.
Ronnieroadster

[Ol' Ron]

Are you sure the cam is no good? wouldn't cost a thing to clean it up and check it out. I just might be saved. If it can be saved it will save you 270 for just a regrind on your core. Or 350 plus for a new one. I just don't have that much money. I know some of youse guys have some play money and a few grand into an engine is just the name of the game. In my case I have to par for boring a blck and fitting th e pistons. That's more than the cost of the cam. I have to have to have the drank assy balanced, that's more than the cost of the cam. I could go on, but you get the idea I pay for everthing I have here I don't love off the family, I pay the taxes, insurencw an dthe heat. My only income is SS and 325 for the fact that i'can't see very well.. Maybe I should just watch reruns and porn I have an idea on how to get more power from a normaly aspriated flathead. Most of the fixtures are done and a prototypr has been made. If it works I'll just give it too youse guys and you can go and brake somemore records. If it don't, we might knoww hy and make a better one. Buut it's one of the reasons I get up every morning and go putz ariund in the shop. Be 88 i anothe r week or so 34 year sober
Gramps

[cas3]

Job site??? I thought you retired last year!

[GB SISSON]

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Originally Posted by cas3

Job site??? I thought you retired last year!

I don't recall me saying that, but there's a lot of stuff I don't remember....Still hard at it 5 days a week. I'll be 68 next month. Raised 4 kids living on a rock, working with my hands. I forgot to put money away for retirement. I may sell 5 of my ten acres at some point, but the social security is nice to get. I waited til I was 66 so I can work full time and they don't take any of it away. It's all good for now and I get some pretty nice furniture projects and stay away from jobsites and big kitchen jobs for the most part these days. Just my 27 year old son and myself, no more of that 4 employee stuff!

[tubman]

I'm in "Ol' Ron"'s camp. The guys that are doing this for a living just don't understand us "old putzers". I'm more interested in whether this would succeed than the next Bonneville record. And then there's the financial aspect he mentioned as well.

I say "go for it"!

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by tubman

I'm in "Ol' Ron"'s camp. The guys that are doing this for a living just don't understand us "old putzers". I'm more interested in whether this would succeed than the next Bonneville record. And then there's the financial aspect he mentioned as well.

I say "go for it"!

I too would give it a whirl. Only, I would put a couple magnets in the pan just in case. But back in the '80's when Chevies were eating camshafts for breakfast, lunch and dinner I replaced a bunch of them and never worried about the resulting metal in the pan. It didn't seem to hurt anything. Maybe the filters caught it. Often times a cam would have two flat lobes and more were half gone, plus the metal from lifter faces. That is a lot of ground up iron in an engine! Yet they survived and the customer drove away happy. Never had anyone come back with a shot engine.

[Baggs]

Interesting discussion, but I look at it like a bearing race, even cleaned up and polished, I wouldn’t use it.

Now I can see if your wallet is empty and you need to get an engine running to get to work, then sure. I realized these engines don’t run with high spring pressures, but 300 bucks added to the cost of a freshly rebuilt engine, isn’t that much for a piece of mind.

Hey, might last 75k miles, but say you put the 300 into a new cam or a regrind on it, average out what that 300 bucks per mile cost you. Not a lot.

Now if someone brought me a pile of engine parts and said “put it together, I’ll pay you xxx$$”. I’d not think twice, only give them options.

[38 coupe]

Do you have any other flathead cams? The 8CM is nice, but not the only option. I helped a friend rebuild the engine from his grandparent's 50 Merc a couple years ago. The 8CM cam was too far gone to put back in. We installed a good looking EAB cam (the rest of the motor is stock 50 Merc) and the motor runs great. For truck use any stock flathead cam in good condition will work great.

[tobby]

i have a good cam/core? $25 tobby 818-990-0590

[Ol' Ron]

A good point to make here is there is very little difference between ALL the stock cams. A few degrees in duration and a few thousand's lift. I don't think anyone
could tell the difference which one was in the engine during a trip around town.

[GB SISSON]

Good thoughts. I must have a few more late cams around here. When I put the 4" crank in a 59ab in my 38 tonner, we just used the cam from the 59ab. It was a VERY impressive jump in hill climbing power and I gotta say it idled like a swiss watch. Been thinking about building an engine from old parts to mount on skids and run with one head removed at the Lynden antique power meet in August, A good test for this 8cm cam......All depends on what I find here.

[Russ/40]

Finally some sanity on the use of a junk cam. I'd go with that use, running one head. When it dies who cares. Thanks to Ron, who makes a good point. "Just about any stock flathead cam will do the same job.

[tubman]

Ford engineers must have thought there was a difference. If not, why go to all the trouble of developing a new grind for the heavier Mercury's?

Those guys generally knew what they were doing.

[Russ/40]

No doubt there was a reason, and a result. The point being made is any flathead will run well with any flathead cam. A minute amount of performance separates them.

[GB SISSON]

I found 3 cams that are still in '49-'53 blocks, so I gotta tear them down. I doubt very much that they will be rusty, as these are some greasy old things down in the valley. One of them has a pan on it with the big circle of bolts around it for a clean-out. The 255 engine is next winter's project so I won't be rushing into it this week. And the one headed flathead on youtube is a really fun thing to see. At these old tractor/hit-n-miss/steam get togethers the crowd is heavy on the octogenarians that love all the old stuff from 'back then'. While the show is primarily about the farm machinery, my tow vehicle is more often than not powered by a flathead V8. Sometimes I have guys two deep listening to and talking about the old flathead V8 in my truck.

[cas3]

A few years ago when i was having cams checked at my local joint, most times the problem was the fuel pump lobe worn worse than the cam. those guys, been here forever, would just go in the back room and bring out a cam better than mine, and it was a 100 bucks to grind, my cam or theirs. I dont get it, but they have racks, and racks of cams, and the place has been for sale for about a decade cause the old guy wants to quit, sadly, it will all go in the scrap pile someday

[Graeme / New Zealand]

Originally Posted by Mart

I don't think even I would try and run that one, GB. Do you not have any other potential cores to hand?

Mart.

LOL "said the actress to the Bishop" !......coming from the "King of crusties," I nearly "choked on my Weaties" with your comment