fine point thoughts..

[Jim Mason]

I've been reading some of the last few posts re:fine point judging and have a few thoughts to share. One poster was upset because his car scored some 20 points lower at one clubs meet, than at the others, thus 'knocking him out of the contest'. There have been a couple that state that 'no one will tell me how to build my car'. Then the reoccurring theme 'i know how to enjoy the model A hobby and you don't' and 'I won't spend THAT much money to make a trailer queen'.

No where in the Restoration Guidelines and Judging Standards does it say you HAVE to build your car anyway other than the way you want it. If you meet the simple points necessary, you can enter your car in fine point judging. Please note this is a judging (adjudication) not a contest. You are provided with standards that your car will be compared to, and the car will lose points for items not meeting those standards. In no case is one car compared to another. You chose which points your will lose. If you use parts that identifiable as not original you will lose points. If the judge can't tell it's a reproduction, you will not loose points. If you use a reproduction interior, that has non original material, padding, stitching, color as described in the standards you will lose points. In the first post mentioned above I would not be upset with the lower score, I would be upset with the higher incorrect score, and since there IS NO CONTEST there is nothing to get 'knocked out' of as stated in the post.

As for the 'no one will tell me how to build my car' & the reoccuring theme 'i know how to enjoy the model A hobby and you don't' ...I agree completely. I will build my car the way I want, (to fine point standards) and I know what I enjoy (fine point standards) and you can do as you please.

The fine point cars I have had the privilege to judge may be trailer queens, but that is the choice of the owner (see previous paragraph).

The cost of the restoration is again, a choice of the owner. I will spend no more than I am willing to restore my car. I may not have an original muffler, but I will have the best reproduction I can afford. Same with the battery, wiring, etc. etc. I will also not get upset if I lose points for the same. As it stands now I feel my car should score over 400 points, while my goal will certainly be 500 I'm not going to bankrupt myself for it. If it scores lower...it scores lower, so what? When completed with the judging I plan on removing any of the friable parts, parts that would be break my heart to have stolen etc, add some safety parts (turn signals come to mind) and drive the car as much as possible. A well RESTORED car is reliable, enjoyable to drive, and safe. Take a look at some of the test track video of the 28 tudor.

Since the advent of the 'touring class' judging there has been a decrease in fine point cars entered. But if you noticed there has been very few, if any 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place cars as compared to older meets. The number of 400 and higher point cars have remained about the same for each meet. Does this mean touring class is a lesser vehicle? No, it means touring class uses a different standard to judge. Items that would lose points in fine point, don't lose them in touring class. Quality of workmanship may be the same in either. (personally I would be prouder of a 350point fine point score than a 500 point touring, but that is just me. See paragraph above on 'how i enjoy my model a')

I don't know where this soap box came from but I'll get off of it now....

[Roadster62]

I've always wondered how all the "Fine Point" discussions wind up here on the Ford Barn, isn't there a MARC and MAFRC website were all those club members can fight it out? Bob

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Roadster62

I've always wondered how all the "Fine Point" discussions wind up here on the Ford Barn, isn't there a MARC and MAFRC website were all those club members can fight it out? Bob

This forum originally was created as a fine point forum. A search will reveal threads where the owner has stated such.

[tbirdtbird]

"In the first post mentioned above I would not be upset with the lower score, I would be upset with the higher incorrect score"

from this distance how is it to be known that the higher score was the incorrect one?

[Roadster62]

Thanks I never knew that, it explains a lot. Bob

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

This forum originally was created as a fine point forum. A search will reveal threads where the owner has stated such.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

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Originally Posted by Roadster62

Thanks I never knew that, it explains a lot. Bob

Bob, to clarify that a bit, Ryan initially stated this forum was to be used for discussing Restoration topics with an occasional sidebar allowed for some topic about modifications. This went well for awhile but slowly over time there became more and more posted hatred towards "purists" by the ones that wanted the more liberal interpretation of the word restoration. Unfortunately, this site has lost an extreme amount of knowledgable people simply due to the now-liberal mindsets. I must confess that I get aggravated at the posted ignorance that is made here, but then I go to some of Model-A pages on Facebook and read the advice given there, then I am reminded how truly ignorant people are yet they will still post their thoughts & beliefs touting it as 'gospel truth'. IMHO, the information given here is light years above the other web info pages on Facebook!

With regard to a MARC/MAFCA website to fight it out, generally speaking there is less bantering in the 'purists' circles as to what is/isn't correct simply because there usually is documentation (factory blueprints, photos, engineering releases, service bulletins, etc) to prove/disprove the poster's comments. I will tell you this though, I have several times thought about approaching MAFFI about sponsoring a forum on their site (exactly like this one) just for information on 'authentically restoring' the Model-A. If that does happen, I suspect I and a few others would spend their Lion's share of time/efforts posting there instead of here. That is not to say or imply that this forum would then suffer, but only to say it would be an alternative venue to discuss topics that are more closely aligned with the original intent of what this forum was to be.

[Rowdy]

At some point in the future I likely will build a fine point car. Unfortunately too much with the delivery was missing or in too rough of shape to make it that car. Rod

[Mitch//pa]

why cant everybody just coexist here? with small "modified" side bars as Ryan suggested... if your not interested in fine point just refrain from responding or even reading the post. i dont see the need for a separate fine point only forum

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Mitch, it is just NOT in human nature to 'co-exist' naturally ...no different than Democrats & Republicans, Rodders & Restorers, little Boys & Little Girls!!

One of the things I wish would happen more here is discussions on "restoration how-to's" that discuss correct procedures that would encourage readers to try doing topics themselves.

[newshirt]

Well said, Jim! I joined fordbarn in 2010 because I thought it was for fine-point and restoration only. I wanted to have my car judged, and still do. Modern mods on an antique car never occurred to me. But that's my own naivety.

As I got deeper into the hobby I realized that repro parts would hurt my score if the car was ever judged. But I also began to realize that I could not afford original parts, and could not afford to wear them out. So I focused on eliminating the mods and using repro to bring my car back to semi-original state. I'm not really satisfied with that compromise, so I probably need a trailer queen I can focus on while I enjoy my driver. Problem is, I can afford one of those either.

So for now, I'm just waiting until I can, and I hope the experts don't go away before I get one. Fordbarn seems like a good home for a wide range of hobbyists. I appreciate the purists, and want to be one some day. I hope you'll stick around to help us new guys.

[mshmodela]

Jim/Mitch

Agreed, to each Model A owner their own. A fine point car, a driver, an original car, or Rod are works of art that takes time, talent, and in our hobbies case, money. One's personal taste should not cause one to not use their "Manners" Clutch with respect to stating an opinion here.

[Kevin in NJ]

For the I want to build the car my own way, well I have trouble with that.

I would be quick to argue that 'my own way' needs to be thought about a bit more.

First I will point out myself. I am restoring a car that will hopefully be a good representation of a car from the factory. Where economically and time possible I have tried to keep to JS correct. Time and money have forced me to do a lot of things that are not really JS correct. I have tried to keep the chassis to Ford Factory correct. While the finishes of the nuts and bolts are not right in many places, the tolerances of the parts are my best (and I am sure not perfect) attempt to be correct.


While you have the right to build the car anyway you want, you have the responsibility to build a safe properly operating car. All too often 'my own way' and correct restoration of mechanical parts to safe operating condition are two very different points.

What gets blurred in the picture is this separation of Judging Standards correct and proper mechanical restoration so the car drives properly (or hopefully, like factory). This is two different areas that will blend together at points.

To use the Ford prints to understand a parts construction and to do your best to restore the mechanical dimensions I would hope is the goal of every restoration. At times it is important to match correct year parts to make this happen. When you restore the car 'your way' as opposed to the way some engineers designed it then I would hope you are doing because you truly know how to engineer the parts better.

The underlying reason for this site is to convey factual information about the Model A. While opinion does have a place, when people get nasty pushing their opinion against demonstrable fact- well that is not good and drives away a certain positive element.

Consider this......
There are lots of ways to paint a spindle, but the fact is you must have a certain clearance on the bushings for them to function properly. The clearance is not an opinion it is establish fact.

Learn the history, build the mechanical parts right, then drive.

[jimalabam]

Well said Jim and Brent. Jim Langley...

[Roadster62]

This is an honest question on a topic I have no knowledge on, just a fuzzy idea about what goes on. John Q. Restorer is on a restoration of a "Fine Point" and has to go to the Henry Ford to research factory blueprints. Just what is he looking for, and what happens when he finds it? Is his restoration now light years ahead of and vastly better that the lower point cars? Does his new found evidence cause books to be rewriten, is his info shared or just shown to the "Fine Point" team of judges on judgement day? Bob

[denis4x4]

When Shelly owned the Fordbarn, she set up a good site for Model A hot rodders that was pretty active and eliminated some of the tensions between the restorers and the people looking to modify their A's.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Roadster62

This is an honest question on a topic I have no knowledge on, just a fuzzy idea about what goes on. John Q. Restorer is on a restoration of a "Fine Point" and has to go to the Henry Ford to research factory blueprints. Just what is he looking for, and what happens when he finds it? Is his restoration now light years ahead of and vastly better that the lower point cars? Does his new found evidence cause books to be rewriten, is his info shared or just shown to the "Fine Point" team of judges on judgement day? Bob

One of the purposes of the restoration and judging book is so that one does not have to go to the research center so your question about if his car would be light years ahead of others because of it, short answer no.

Let me give you an example, did you know there were seven different instrument panels made for the model A? Someone could go to the Benson research center and spend time and money on looking it up or look in the manual.

So your asking, big deal all I need is one with a round opening or oval opening. And your right, but what if all things being equal, in front of you there were all the different panels. Would you pick any one that fit or the one that is correct for the your car?



Donate the 35 dollars to the national club of your choice and buy the guidelines and judging manual. If you don't think it was a worthwhile purchase I'll buy it from you so you are not out a dime. Get it look at it, ask questions about it then decide.

[pooch]

Originally Posted by denis4x4

When Shelly owned the Fordbarn, she set up a good site for Model A hot rodders that was pretty active and eliminated some of the tensions between the restorers and the people looking to modify their A's.

Wish I was here then, and Shelly was still here, it would save having to listen to some of the Prima Donnas here.

I would dearly love a modified model A sidebar/forum.

I have been told the HAMB is there for us, but I have no interest in any other cars/makes/models than the model A, and any talk on model A/s gets quickly pushed down in the multitude of other posts.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by pooch

Wish I was here then, and Shelly was still here, it would save having to listen to some of the Prima Donnas here.

I would dearly love a modified model A sidebar/forum.

I have been told the HAMB is there for us, but I have no interest in any other cars/makes/models than the model A, and any talk on model A/s gets quickly pushed down in the multitude of other posts.

Let's respectfully look at this from a different way, ....why not start your own "modified Model A" forum somewhere? That way you can control who you want there, --and what content you want discussed!! In the interim, you could go to Facebook and join the Speedster & Gow-job group, the Period Hot Rod group, -or the Banger group already there, and openly discuss related topics. Calling others Prima Donnas for just wanting to protect their 'turf' that was given to them by this site owner only adds fuel to a smoldering fire.

[Tom in SW VA]

I decided decades ago that I wanted to have original cars. Not chopped up, not souped up.....but original or restored to original. Call me a prima donna or a purist, but I think that anything worth doing is worth doing correctly. To me, the Model A Ford is not a plaything, but a piece of automobile history that needs to be preserved. BYW, I drive my cars and enjoy them as they were originally were meant to be enjoyed. And yes, it breaks my heart to see ANY classic car that has been raped and destroyed forever.