Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Model A (1928-31)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-17-2021, 05:31 PM   #61
Dave in MN
Senior Member
 
Dave in MN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Jordan, MN
Posts: 1,410
Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by hardtimes View Post
I'm sure that Dave was looking at you 'dry' remarks, that you made in yesterdays comments at 11:41 entry...as was I.

Assembly of this puzzle (engine) is a detail oriented operation. Even professional auto technicians make (expensive) mistakes. Don't hesitate to have others help you to inspect what you've done.

One missing piece of this puzzle can ruin all.
Good luck !
hardtimes, Exactly. In post #44 it looked like the plan was to check the clearance with Plastigage devoid of oil and that would lead to false readings.

My intention is not to rile anyone. The reason for my post was to make sure Plastigage is used correctly to avoid false clearance data. I also wanted to point out that the aluminum foil method of determining bearing clearance is not fitting for insert bearing engines.

I have assembled over 200 engines over the past 10 years converted over to insert bearings. Insert bearings require a precise fit. Too little bearing clearance and they will dramatically fail, too much clearance the engine may leak and eventually the bearing will fail. Install them correctly and keep the oil clean and they will run for years. My '29 Phaeton has 98,000 miles on the original insert bearings and it leaves no trail of oil.
Good Day!
Dave in MN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2021, 11:05 PM   #62
hardtimes
Senior Member
 
hardtimes's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: South California
Posts: 6,188
Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldredford View Post
So these engine blocks are made in China?
Hey oldredford,
If you don’t know history of this situation, since you asked....
For MANY years, Terry spun his wheels, spent his time , talents and money to make this happen....here in the USA. Never happened !
Now the engine will live on and on !
Thanks Terry for sharing your skills , and for your amazing tenacity!!
hardtimes is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 04-18-2021, 03:00 AM   #63
Synchro909
Senior Member
 
Synchro909's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 7,472
Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by hardtimes View Post
Hey oldredford,
If you don’t know history of this situation, since you asked....
For MANY years, Terry spun his wheels, spent his time , talents and money to make this happen....here in the USA. Never happened !
Now the engine will live on and on !
Thanks Terry for sharing your skills , and for your amazing tenacity!!
That's exactly how I saw it develop too. Like most countries in the west these days, those skills have disappeared. Where will we stand when the inevitable confrontation with China happens if we (the west) cannot do even this?
__________________
I'm part of the only ever generation with an analogue childhood and a digital adulthood.

Last edited by Synchro909; 04-18-2021 at 03:06 AM.
Synchro909 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2021, 08:48 AM   #64
HD Rider
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Glendive MT
Posts: 155
Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synchro909 View Post
That's exactly how I saw it develop too. Like most countries in the west these days, those skills have disappeared. Where will we stand when the inevitable confrontation with China happens if we (the west) cannot do even this?
The talent is still here. Just look up Cory Anderson's Case 150 Road Locomotive. We have just priced ourselves out of business.
HD Rider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2021, 09:18 AM   #65
johnneilson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: 34.22 N 118.36 W
Posts: 1,044
Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

This may or may not be the situation, just an observation.
It was not that long ago, here in Los Angeles you could find just about any process/manufacturing specialty and have quality components made.
Casting is an art form and there are not that many left who can do complex pieces especially in Iron. We have become "specialty" manufacturers, cranks, rods, pistons etc.

If I am understanding the situation, Terry and John have utilized an engine manufacturing company that employs all the necessary disciples. This is important to keep in mind as they do provide engines for car manufacturers so the amount of work to coordinate the project is minimal. I suspect that this is another reason the project came together so quickly.

This is a great move for the Model "A" community, John
__________________
As Carroll Smith wrote; All Failures are Human in Origin.
johnneilson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2021, 09:55 AM   #66
Dave in MN
Senior Member
 
Dave in MN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Jordan, MN
Posts: 1,410
Default Re: The new Burtz Model A engine

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
I had time in the shop today to fit the bearings and crank in the Burtz engine I purchased.

Burtz engine # 21020303-0007
The main bearing housing bores were deburred. The parting lines on the caps and block at the housing bore were filed to remove the razor sharp edge. All other machined edges were radiused with a de-burring tool. The bearing location tangs were checked in the block and deemed okay. The location tang cuts in the caps needed a very slight dressing with a 1.25" dia. cut-off wheel in a Dremel tool. All location tang cuts were lightly dressed with fine emery cloth to remove any unseen burs or razor edges left from machining. No changes were made to the insert shells.

The bearings were set and crank installed.

Clearances, using fresh Plastigage were:
Front .0018"
#2 .002"
Center .0018"
#4 .0018"
Rear .0018"
Crank thrust clearance .002" without any adjustment to the thrust washers.

The work above required about 1.75 hours. (I rebuild engines and have most of the needed tools already set up.)
I will update this post after further assembly.
Overall, pretty impressive machining work on this block.
Good Day!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Engine with crankshaft installed.jpg (93.9 KB, 61 views)
File Type: jpg Rear view with crankshaft installed.jpg (79.9 KB, 56 views)
File Type: jpg Rear cap.jpg (65.9 KB, 60 views)

Last edited by Dave in MN; 04-20-2021 at 01:10 PM. Reason: Add photo
Dave in MN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2021, 11:33 AM   #67
Russ/40
Senior Member
 
Russ/40's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Santee, California
Posts: 3,505
Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

Now, those are the kind of plastigauge numbers I would want to see.
Thanks Dave for the report.
Russ/40 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2021, 06:05 PM   #68
buckwild 27
Junior Member
 
buckwild 27's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Saint Clairsville, OH,
Posts: 11
Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

Everything is balanced individually so it's still balanced if you change out a prt of the system
buckwild 27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2021, 06:37 PM   #69
Pete
Senior Member
 
Pete's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Wa.
Posts: 5,374
Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by buckwild 27 View Post
Everything is balanced individually so it's still balanced if you change out a part of the system
Not necessarily. That system is used because it works for a production engine.
It is NOT the best or most accurate way. It is adaquate only.

It is also why some engines shake and some don't even after balancing.
Pete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2021, 04:15 AM   #70
Synchro909
Senior Member
 
Synchro909's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 7,472
Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by HD Rider View Post
The talent is still here. Just look up Cory Anderson's Case 150 Road Locomotive. We have just priced ourselves out of business.
I'm not so sure about that and I believe accountants are mostly to blame. They have chased the cheapest price for an item for years without consideration for the long term implications and what it means for industry at home. After many years of losing business to cheap labour countries, our industries have withered and skills lost as those with the skills retire.
I hope you are right about the skills still being there but.....
__________________
I'm part of the only ever generation with an analogue childhood and a digital adulthood.
Synchro909 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2021, 10:19 AM   #71
KMeredith87
Senior Member
 
KMeredith87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 177
Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

Curious what the future plans are for this engine. I’ve followed moderately. Is it going to be a limited run deal only? I believe Todd is still working a new original block as well, is that correct? I’ve been out of the loop for a while. Good to see these engines going together and excited to see what the lucky ones who are running them have to say once they’ve been broken in and run hard.
KMeredith87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2021, 11:38 AM   #72
Jim Brierley
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Temecula, CA
Posts: 4,066
Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

It's my understanding that 4 cylinder engines do not need balancing as an entire assembly, just all the pieces must be done. All pistons must weigh the same, rods the same etc. Crank and/or flywheel can be balanced individually.
Jim Brierley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2021, 01:25 PM   #73
wrpercival
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 16
Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by KMeredith87 View Post
Curious what the future plans are for this engine. IÂ’ve followed moderately. Is it going to be a limited run deal only? I believe Todd is still working a new original block as well, is that correct? IÂ’ve been out of the loop for a while. Good to see these engines going together and excited to see what the lucky ones who are running them have to say once theyÂ’ve been broken in and run hard.
In regards to the Burtz Block, the plan is to continue production. Demand for the initial run exceeded supply and there is a reservation list of pre-orders forming on the next run. Production on that (larger) run is already underway with an August 2021 delivery projected. Reservations/Pre-orders can be placed at: https://burtzblock.com No deposit is required to place a reservation on a block. Pre-orders will be fulfilled in the order they were received.

Longer-term, the goal is to have inventory warehoused & available to ship in the US. Based on the demand thus far, and the impact of global supply chain issues that most are aware of, it may be a year before that balance is reached.
wrpercival is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2021, 03:04 PM   #74
Pete
Senior Member
 
Pete's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Wa.
Posts: 5,374
Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Brierley View Post
It's my understanding that 4 cylinder engines do not need balancing as an entire assembly, just all the pieces must be done. All pistons must weigh the same, rods the same etc. Crank and/or flywheel can be balanced individually.
To fully balance a 4 cylinder in-line engine, you balance the individual pieces first. This means rods end for end, pistons,pins,rings, pin retainers if used and rod bearings.
Then you balance the crank statically and dynamically. Statically means ,as a whole or in a single plane. Dynamically means over the whole length.
Then you put any front pulley or damper that is used on and balance that. Then you put the flywheel on and balance that. Then the clutch and balance that. As a side note, knowing where to remove weight on these pieces is extremely critical and you NEVER weld weights on a clutch cover to balance it. After balancing these parts are marked so they can be reassembled in the same orientation. At this point, a reasonably close static balance has been achieved for the whole assembly and final static balance touchup can be done if needed. Then dynamic balance of the whole assembly is done.

Individual pieces can be balanced and mix assembled to give an acceptable street balance job most of the time but here "most" is the critical word. It depends on the quality of the arbors used and the amount of unbalance that is to be tolerated.
Pete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2021, 03:21 PM   #75
Jeff/Illinois
Senior Member
 
Jeff/Illinois's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,787
Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

Interesting thread!!

As a former Fords Parts Manager and not a 'mechanic' I have learned an important principle here.

The day I buy one of Mr. Burtz' new engines, my next call will be to someone like Dave in Minnesota that knows what the heck he's doing, to build the thing

I know the parts. I know what they do. But I also know when to draw the line!
Jeff/Illinois is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2021, 09:58 PM   #76
whirnot
Senior Member
 
whirnot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Bend Or.
Posts: 1,053
Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

Reading taildraggers first post, took me back about 50 years to the first engine I rebuilt. I did the same thing, but didn't know to double check everything. Got the engine back together and it wouldn't turn. A new set of inserts and some plastic age, and we were in business.
__________________
Bill Worden

1929 Roadster
1929 Briggs Town Sedan
1930 Closed Cab pickup
Smith Motor Compressor
1951 Ford F1

High Desert Model A's
whirnot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2021, 10:30 PM   #77
mercman from oz
Senior Member
 
mercman from oz's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Queensland, Australia
Posts: 10,295
Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine






Very impressive casting indeed.
mercman from oz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2021, 10:36 PM   #78
johnneilson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: 34.22 N 118.36 W
Posts: 1,044
Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

Jim is correct, a 4 banger cannot be fully balanced because the offset piston acceleration.
You can equalize everything as much as possible, but never truly balance the motor.
Counterbalance the crank as much as you can, BB cranks work great, minimize the rod weight and the pistons too.

Banger motors making real HP will shake, that is a fact, a power stroke every 180 degs on the crank is why. Had a guy tell me he didn't like his motor shaking, I took the timing out and it settled down, then made no power. Guess what the final result was?

John
__________________
As Carroll Smith wrote; All Failures are Human in Origin.
johnneilson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2021, 11:49 PM   #79
Pete
Senior Member
 
Pete's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Wa.
Posts: 5,374
Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnneilson View Post
Jim is correct, a 4 banger cannot be fully balanced because the offset piston acceleration.
You can equalize everything as much as possible, but never truly balance the motor.
Counterbalance the crank as much as you can, BB cranks work great, minimize the rod weight and the pistons too.

Banger motors making real HP will shake, that is a fact, a power stroke every 180 degs on the crank is why. Had a guy tell me he didn't like his motor shaking, I took the timing out and it settled down, then made no power. Guess what the final result was?

John
You are absolutely correct. "Fully" is interpreted two different ways here.
It is NOT the best word to use.
You can not get enough weight on the crank to 100% balance it. There is not enough room in the crankcase. Balance shafts are another way to 100% balance. Either way, a complete re-design of the engine would be required.
Pete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2021, 12:22 AM   #80
Terry Burtz, Calif
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Campbell,CA, USA
Posts: 313
Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

The "New Engine" has 8 counterweights and ample room for added tungsten weights if desired.

Balance shafts are used to make buyers of 4-cylinder engines comfortable because they don't see or feel vibrations.

Engines with balance shafts that are used in racing have their balance shafts discarded to reduce weight.
Terry Burtz, Calif is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:00 AM.