Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Early V8 (1932-53)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-17-2018, 03:59 PM   #21
KGS
Senior Member
 
KGS's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Schooley's Mountain
Posts: 530
Default Re: Revisiting head stud removal. Ugh!!!!!!

This is from "Rumbleseats Flathead Tips" by the late great Paul Garrigan.


REMOVING STUDS: There are several methods I’ve used with varying degrees of


success over the years. I continually try new methods whenever I hear of one.


Today I use the following. I’ve listed these in order of success. Just remember


to take your time and don’t get in a hurry when working on studs...... they’ll


only break and then you end up with a whole bunch of new troubles. When using a


stud puller, I use a torque wrench and limit the torque to 60ft/lbs to keep from


breaking studs. In the following, I’m assuming the heads are removed.




From Red’s Headers on 1/30/03. Limit removal torque to 75-80 ft/lbs when






trying to break a stud loose to avoid breaking it. I’m nervous and limit removal






torque to 70 ft/lbs.


Stud pullers. There are a differences in stud pullers. I use a stud puller


that grips all the way around the stud (looks similar to a deep well socket). I


think these are the best and worth the price. The common cam lock type rotates


an anti-slip grooved cam so it contacts and applies pressure to one side of the


stud. These are lousy as far as I’m concerned. I can’t begin to guess how many


studs I’ve broken in the early days using these pullers, but it’s probably in the


hundreds!.


(1) Soak the studs with your favorite penetrating oil several times a day for


several days. I prefer “BG In-Force Ion-Activated Penetrating oil” (# 438) or


“Aerokroil Penetrating Oil” or “P-Blaster Penetrant” in that order. Run a head


nut down flush with the stud and hit the top of the stud HARD with a big hammer a


few times (like it’s a nail you’re trying to drive into the block). The impact


and vibration will some times help free-up a frozen stud. Now get out the stud


puller. GENTLY attempt to tighten the stud first. Then try loosening it.


GENTLY work it back and forth... tighten and loosen..... tighten and loosen. The


majority of the time if you’ve soaked them good and worked with them, the stud


will come loose. If it won’t budge, try soaking it again over night. Don’t ever


force it unless you’re sadistic.




(2) This requires an acetylene torch. Heating the stud alone just expands the


stud and does little to loosen them. But heating the boss in the water chamber


of the block expands the boss to make the threaded hole larger. Have the stud


puller on the stud and ready to use. Light the torch and put it inside the water


chamber and heat up the boss… it doesn’t have to be red hot… just fairly hot will


usually work. As you apply the torch, put a fair amount of strain on the stud


puller. It’ll usually loosen once you have the boss pretty hot. I’ve used this


method on the last five engines… and never broke a stud… which is amazing for


this old geezer.


The above two methods have never failed to remove a stud! Shore makes life


easier.




KGS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2018, 04:51 PM   #22
Flathead Fever
Senior Member
 
Flathead Fever's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Yucaipa, CA
Posts: 1,091
Default Re: Revisiting head stud removal. Ugh!!!!!!

I just went through this and took lots of photos which I'll try and add later. I found penetrating oil sprayed each day for several days was useless. Not one stud broke loose using it. Eventually I ended up breaking three. Then I mig welded nuts to them and got two of them out. The third one my welded nut kept breaking off so I had to drill it out using the head as a guide with a bushing in the hole to guide the drill bit. I had to drill it until only the stud's threads were left and then unwind them out of there. That stud would not give up.

Like everybody says heat them red hot and let them naturally cool I would not quench them because it might make them brittle. Plus it will make them extremely hard. Should the stud break it might be too hard to drill through.

While they are still hot I melted one of my wife's candles into the threads. It really helped a lot. This was the first time I had tried using the wax. The first stud I tired without the wax and I broke the stud. I used the Snap-On collet stud remover. This is an absolute must have tool. I used a 1/2-inch impact set to its lowest setting so it just hammers away at it. If you set it to high (389 fp) it will snap the stud right off. If you try a breaker bar it will snap the stud off. What really made a difference was a small pipe wrench on the stud. I pulled on the pipe wrench so there was tension on the stud while the impact hammered on it. That pipe wrench was the hot ticket. They all came right out except two which broke. I was careful and took a lot of time on those two studs and they still broke.

A mig weld will not stick to cast iron so it works great for taking broken bolts out of blocks.

If the stud was not sticking above out at all I first welded a thick washer to the stud. Then I welded a 1/2" nut the washer. Its important to take the plating off the bolt and washer or it will contaminate your weld and weaken it. I bead blasted the finish offof mine. One of the studs broke loose and started turning. It came out a couple of threads and broke again.
That was with the wax and gently going back and forth with a wrench. I welded another nut and I got a couple more threads and it broke again. Eventually it came out. If the threads are sticking out at all then I just weld the nut to the stud.

Even when they do break loose the "all" will continue to fight you all the way out because the threads are an interference fit. Do not run a tap into the block until you do some research. A lot of people are having their studs leak coolant because they have ran the wrong type tap into the block or had the wrong class of threaded studs. There are classifications for loose threads and tight threads. You want the tight ones or they will leak no matter how much Permatex you put on them.

There was that one stud that would not budge no matter how many nuts I welded to it. I have a Snap-On broken bolt removing kit. It uses bushings to center the drill and extractors to take the broken bolts out. The extractor did not work on this stud. It would have broke for sure if I had put anymore pressure on it. I continued to drill it out until nothing was left but threads. There is no way I could have done that without the drill bushings to hold the drill perfectly centered and straight.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20180601_205841.jpg (53.9 KB, 71 views)
File Type: jpg 20180601_210106 copy.jpg (48.5 KB, 66 views)
File Type: jpg 20180613_133156.jpg (30.9 KB, 65 views)
File Type: jpg 20180613_133557 - Copy.jpg (30.1 KB, 67 views)
File Type: jpg 20180613_140409 - Copy.jpg (32.1 KB, 68 views)
File Type: jpg 20180613_135541.jpg (33.9 KB, 66 views)
File Type: jpg 20180613_133748 - Copy.jpg (31.8 KB, 64 views)
File Type: jpg 20180613_135727 - Copy.jpg (36.6 KB, 66 views)
File Type: jpg 20180701_095901.jpg (62.4 KB, 62 views)
File Type: jpg 20180701_095821.jpg (61.2 KB, 62 views)
File Type: jpg 20180701_110234.jpg (40.7 KB, 61 views)
File Type: jpg 20180701_110531.jpg (45.4 KB, 61 views)
File Type: jpg 20180701_110647.jpg (43.4 KB, 61 views)
File Type: jpg 20180701_122054.jpg (42.3 KB, 62 views)

Last edited by Flathead Fever; 10-17-2018 at 06:29 PM.
Flathead Fever is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 10-17-2018, 05:53 PM   #23
Andy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Kerrville, Tx
Posts: 2,768
Default Re: Revisiting head stud removal. Ugh!!!!!!

I had good luck with a pair of vice grips. I tighten them to the max and put them on the stud opposite each other. Working them back and forth in unison starts the stud moving. I also recommend heat on the block and not the stud. Heating the stud red hot will make it weaker.
Andy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2018, 06:20 PM   #24
FL&WVMIKE
Senior Member
 
FL&WVMIKE's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Daytona Beach, Fl & Spencer, W. Va,
Posts: 4,442
Default Re: Revisiting head stud removal. Ugh!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vics Stuff View Post
When loosening those studs . Always remember to apply steady pressure to the stud to loosen them. If using a air wrench you are going to shock the stud and almost every time you are going to brake them off.
Vic
I've found the exact opposite. As long as you don't go 'full retard' with the impact wrench, the impacts actually help break the stud loose. What works well, is using a 3/8" electric impact. They aren't as strong as an air unit, and with their variable speed, they can be used successfully. The impact method is commonly used on the stubborn spark plugs in the Ford 'mod' motors. (they are famous for breaking off)

As for doing it by hand... a well calibrated, experienced hand that knows how 'not' to break things, along with carefully working the stud BOTH ways, can also be successful.

However, there is no substitute for large amounts of heat... enough heat to turn the stud cherry red. THAT is what will get the stud loose without breaking it. Without it, you can spend HOURS trying all the tricks, and even the most careful hand is still likely to break a few.

As for the comment about heating the block instead of the stud... I consider the studs a throwaway item. I'd rather hit THEM with the heat. Do as a smart man above said... Heat them ALL cherry red, and allow them to cool. They should all come out with little issue.

Good Luck!
__________________
Mike Jr. here. I get on here every few months to check messages, and look through his almost 500 saved messages for information on the '29 and '34 I still have. A lot of very nice people on here. He truly enjoyed Ford Barn.
FL&WVMIKE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2018, 06:51 PM   #25
Talkwrench
Senior Member
 
Talkwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 2,687
Default Re: Revisiting head stud removal. Ugh!!!!!!

I believe you have to think about angles when using those cammed stud extractors. holding load on the stud seemed to work well for me. do all the heating and penetrating stuff, allow to cool a little, each one as you go and use a really big breaker bar and put some load on with the correct angle and hold, if it doesn't move after 30 sec , back off try again, but just use load dont force it. Takes some time to do all but I only lost one.
__________________
"Came too close to dying to stop living now!"
Talkwrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2018, 07:49 PM   #26
FireEngineMike
Senior Member
 
FireEngineMike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Webster, NY
Posts: 215
Default Re: Revisiting head stud removal. Ugh!!!!!!

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Has anyone tried the $450 induction heater?
FireEngineMike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2018, 03:11 PM   #27
corvette8n
Senior Member
 
corvette8n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: 36 miles north of Albany NY
Posts: 2,931
Default Re: Revisiting head stud removal. Ugh!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by FL&WVMIKE View Post
Here's the same torch on Ebay for $198!!!
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Professiona...BubB:rk:2:pf:0

Of course, if you have a friend with a real torch, that also works!

Good Luck!
You have to be careful with the eBay kits as the tanks are not DOT approved and so places won't fill them.
corvette8n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2018, 03:23 PM   #28
mrtexas
Senior Member
 
mrtexas's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Sugar Land, TX
Posts: 4,393
Default Re: Revisiting head stud removal. Ugh!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by corvette8n View Post
You have to be careful with the eBay kits as the tanks are not DOT approved and so places won't fill them.
Another consideration is the charge to fill a tank is mostly fixed in my experience. How much is filled doesn't matter very much. They may charge as much to fill a tiny cylinder as to fill a very large one.
__________________
41 woodie https://41fordwoodie.weebly.com/
mrtexas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2018, 06:42 AM   #29
FL&WVMIKE
Senior Member
 
FL&WVMIKE's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Daytona Beach, Fl & Spencer, W. Va,
Posts: 4,442
Default Re: Revisiting head stud removal. Ugh!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtexas View Post
Another consideration is the charge to fill a tank is mostly fixed in my experience. How much is filled doesn't matter very much. They may charge as much to fill a tiny cylinder as to fill a very large one.
Yea, my kids were into paintball for a while, and it cost the same to fill a 9 ounce or 20 lb CO2 tank. lol They didn't like the hassle/labor of filling the small ones.

As for welding tanks, the same local welding supply shop leases tanks. For a decent sized tank, the lease is around $90 for 5 years. If the tank goes out of date, they supply a new one. Refills are fairly inexpensive... between $20-$40 from what I can remember. I have three... MIG gas, Oxygen, Acetylene. Acetylene is the most expensive. Many who do a lot of torching, are going to Propane cutting torches. Supposed to be a lot cheaper.

I don't use the torches very often, but when the 'smoke wrench' is called for, it comes in really handy!
__________________
Mike Jr. here. I get on here every few months to check messages, and look through his almost 500 saved messages for information on the '29 and '34 I still have. A lot of very nice people on here. He truly enjoyed Ford Barn.
FL&WVMIKE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2018, 07:59 AM   #30
Tim Ayers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NJ
Posts: 6,145
Default Re: Revisiting head stud removal. Ugh!!!!!!

I'm on the hunt for a larger torch kit. I've passed so many up over the years, now I'm kicking myself for not getting a larger tank set.
Tim Ayers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2018, 08:40 AM   #31
Brendan
Senior Member
 
Brendan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: At my kitchen table in Santa Rosa, Ca
Posts: 2,902
Default Re: Revisiting head stud removal. Ugh!!!!!!

i removed the studs from my Model A with acetone and marvels, for days. used a torch got them cherry red and let them cool. then pulled them all with vice-grips. took my time and got them all out
__________________
If it would have been a snake it would have bit ya!

i can't spell my way out of a paper bag!
Brendan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2018, 07:37 AM   #32
Tim Ayers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NJ
Posts: 6,145
Default Re: Revisiting head stud removal. Ugh!!!!!!

The battle continues.... On my third heat cycle. Not sure why these studs are in there so hard. Doesn't make sense.

So far, judging by the few I got out, none of the Kroil, 50/50 mix, or bees wax wicked down into the threads in the block. Unreal!

Last edited by Tim Ayers; 10-22-2018 at 09:06 AM.
Tim Ayers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2018, 07:40 AM   #33
Bored&Stroked
Senior Member
 
Bored&Stroked's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 5,015
Default Re: Revisiting head stud removal. Ugh!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Ayers View Post
The battle continues.... On my third heat cycle. Not sure why these studs are in there so hard. Doesn't make sense.
It is an old flathead block - makes total sense! (Not that I like to have to say that!). Best of luck . . . have worn your shoes plenty of times . . .
Bored&Stroked is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2018, 07:55 AM   #34
JSeery
Member Emeritus
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 16,132
Default Re: Revisiting head stud removal. Ugh!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Ayers View Post
The battle continues.... On my third heat cycle. Not sure why these studs are in there so hard. Doesn't make sense.
When you say third heat cycle, what are you heating the studs up with? Did you come up with a torch setup?
JSeery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2018, 09:02 AM   #35
Tim Ayers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NJ
Posts: 6,145
Default Re: Revisiting head stud removal. Ugh!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSeery View Post
When you say third heat cycle, what are you heating the studs up with? Did you come up with a torch setup?
Yes. I switched tips on my A tank set up. Its working well.

Thought: Can I magnaflux this block with the remaining studs in it? I'd hate to go through all this work only to find out it's bad.

I did find a surprise. It's got a sleeve. I'm hoping it was done to bring that cylinder up back to .030 during it's rebuild and not a hole from a rod. (LOL!)
Attached Images
File Type: jpg sleeve .jpg (39.6 KB, 24 views)
Tim Ayers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2018, 09:04 AM   #36
Tim Ayers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NJ
Posts: 6,145
Default Re: Revisiting head stud removal. Ugh!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked View Post
It is an old flathead block - makes total sense! (Not that I like to have to say that!). Best of luck . . . have worn your shoes plenty of times . . .
Thanks, Dale. Let's try to re-connect soon! Was up to 2:00 AM tearing this down last night.

Those dang rod cotter pins are a PITA!!!!
Tim Ayers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2018, 09:19 AM   #37
JSeery
Member Emeritus
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 16,132
Default Re: Revisiting head stud removal. Ugh!!!!!!

You should be able to have it mag'd with the studs in place. I would want it pressure tested. That to could be done with the studs in. But if your taking it to a shop to have the testing done, just have them pull the studs while it's there.

Last edited by JSeery; 10-22-2018 at 03:57 PM.
JSeery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2018, 09:23 AM   #38
Tim Ayers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NJ
Posts: 6,145
Default Re: Revisiting head stud removal. Ugh!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSeery View Post
You should be able to have it maged with the studs inplace. I would want it pressure tested. That to could be done with the studs in. But if your taking it to a shop to have the testing done, just have them pull the studs while it's there.
Funny, I said the same thing to my wife.

I just may, but I was hoping to do as much as possible myself to help with the rebuild budget.
Tim Ayers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2018, 09:52 AM   #39
whizzernick
Senior Member
 
whizzernick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Hayward Ca
Posts: 635
Default Re: Revisiting head stud removal. Ugh!!!!!!

I think one very important method is: MY METHOD --- HEAT STUD RED ---LET COOL A LITTLE--- HEAT RED AGAIN ---- THEN COOL OFF WITH WATER--- WHEN ALMOST COOL -- SPRAY IN ATF / ACETONE ---THIS MIX SHOULD SUCK IN --- THEN TRY TO UNSCREW WITH NOT A LOT OF TORQUE -- IF IT MOVES --- BACK AND FORTH & RESPRAY WITH ATF --- IF IT DOESENT MOVE --- START OVER WITH HEAT--- YOU NEED TO GET IT RED WAY DOWN --- YOU MAY NEED TO DO THIS MANY TIMES--- THIS METHOD WILL ALWAYS WORK IF THE STUD IS IN GOOD SHAPE --- IF NOT IT WILL WORK SOME TIMES . YOU ALSO NEED (LUCK )
whizzernick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2018, 12:10 PM   #40
FL&WVMIKE
Senior Member
 
FL&WVMIKE's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Daytona Beach, Fl & Spencer, W. Va,
Posts: 4,442
Default Re: Revisiting head stud removal. Ugh!!!!!!

Yea, you need to get it hot all the way down into the threads. The block is a major heat sink. You can't just get the surface of the stud dull red, and think you're fine. You'll need to get it nice and toasty. Just don't melt it off. lol

Good Luck!
__________________
Mike Jr. here. I get on here every few months to check messages, and look through his almost 500 saved messages for information on the '29 and '34 I still have. A lot of very nice people on here. He truly enjoyed Ford Barn.
FL&WVMIKE is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:10 AM.