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Old 09-19-2016, 10:50 AM   #1
Zener424
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Default Camshaft timing gear rattling noise

I have a stock engine that I rebuilt using a Bill Stipe camshaft and a Dan McEachern aluminum timing gear with matched drive gear. In addition, the thrust plunger and spring are new. I get an erratic rattling noise that appears to emanate from the upper end of the engine. I've used several recommended methods to try & diagnose the problem. I discovered that if I remove the timing pin and insert a plastic wall anchor in the hole up against the timing gear, the noise goes away. Figuring it was a loose gear or broken/weak thrust plunger spring, I removed the timing gear cover and replaced the new spring with a used spring that appeared stronger. I also made sure the camshaft gear nut was tight. I still have the same symptoms. I ordered a new spring and I will be borrowing a spring tester to check for 35 lbs. strength. I'm wondering however if this could be something else because my thoughts are that I'm not pressing on the center of the gear, but the side of the gear possibly changing the dynamics, cocking the gear, or maybe absorbing some other camshaft/lifter related noise. Does pressing on the camshaft gear through the timing hole and stopping the sound definitely indicate a thrust plunger spring problem?
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Old 09-19-2016, 11:30 AM   #2
George Miller
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Default Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise

Sounds like your gears do not have enough clearance between the teeth. Did you check the play between the gears. Some times they do not get the mains on the original center line.
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Old 09-19-2016, 11:35 AM   #3
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Default Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise

George, thanks for the reply. Would that be not enough clearance (tight) or too much clearance (loose)? In your opinion what effect is the plastic anchor having on the gear when I push on it?
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Old 09-19-2016, 11:46 AM   #4
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Default Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zener424 View Post
George, thanks for the reply. Would that be not enough clearance (tight) or too much clearance (loose)? In your opinion what effect is the plastic anchor having on the gear when I push on it?
Of course it is just a guess, but when gears are to tight they want to climb on each other. That would cause the cam to come forward and hit the cover. That is why the plastic works. But they could be to loose, but unless the plastic is putting pressure on the cam gear it would still rattle.

You need to take the cover off and check the clearance.
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Old 09-19-2016, 11:37 AM   #5
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Default Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise

I'm thinking along the same lines as George, except it sounds as there is too much clearance to me, maybe.
The cover has to come off to check that though. It should be in the .004"-.006" range and anything over .010" should/could/will be noisy. Just use feeler strips between the teeth.
The common method for checking the timing gear for the cause of a front motor noise is to put pressure against the camshaft gear.

Last edited by Patrick L.; 09-19-2016 at 03:18 PM.
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Old 09-19-2016, 06:33 PM   #6
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Default Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zener424 View Post
I have a stock engine that I rebuilt using a Bill Stipe camshaft and a Dan McEachern aluminum timing gear with matched drive gear. In addition, the thrust plunger and spring are new. I get an erratic rattling noise that appears to emanate from the upper end of the engine. I've used several recommended methods to try & diagnose the problem. I discovered that if I remove the timing pin and insert a plastic wall anchor in the hole up against the timing gear, the noise goes away. Figuring it was a loose gear or broken/weak thrust plunger spring, I removed the timing gear cover and replaced the new spring with a used spring that appeared stronger. I also made sure the camshaft gear nut was tight. I still have the same symptoms. I ordered a new spring and I will be borrowing a spring tester to check for 35 lbs. strength. I'm wondering however if this could be something else because my thoughts are that I'm not pressing on the center of the gear, but the side of the gear possibly changing the dynamics, cocking the gear, or maybe absorbing some other camshaft/lifter related noise. Does pressing on the camshaft gear through the timing hole and stopping the sound definitely indicate a thrust plunger spring problem?
This generally indicates a loose cam gear.
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Old 09-19-2016, 08:25 PM   #7
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Default Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise

Quote:
I will be borrowing a spring tester to check for 35 lbs. strength.
Tip: You can check spring strength using your drill press and a bathroom scale.
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Old 09-19-2016, 08:38 PM   #8
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Default Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise

From memory, the distance between the centre line of the crank shaft and cam shaft is 4.155" Anyone confirm this?
maybe you should check that. A friend over here had a worn camshaft tunnel machined when he rebuilt an engine intending to put in bronze inserts. The centre to centre distance was out by about 8 thou. This caused all sorts of problems so he made new inserts with 9 thou eccentricity. All good and smooth now.
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Old 09-25-2016, 03:11 PM   #9
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Default Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise

Quote:
Originally Posted by katy View Post
Tip: You can check spring strength using your drill press and a bathroom scale.
That is a neat, useful tip. Thanks.
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Old 09-25-2016, 05:20 PM   #10
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Default Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise

Let's see what I remember about 1403 chain-drive idler gears ...
A wink of
.001" to 0.003" exists between the motor drive gear and the chain-drive idler gear at the point of tightest engagement.

Last edited by Benson; 09-26-2016 at 07:06 PM.
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Old 09-25-2016, 05:24 PM   #11
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Default Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise

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Originally Posted by Benson View Post
Let's see what I remember about 1403 chain-drive idler gears ...
A wink of
.001" to .003" exists between the motor drive gear and the chain-drive idler gear at the point of tightest engagement.
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Old 09-27-2016, 12:47 PM   #12
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Default Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise

I felt I should mention, that in researching this topic on Ford Barn, I discovered that there are now at least four threads started by folks that experienced a similar noise problem. In all of the cases, a Bill Stipe camshaft had been installed. I'm not making a direct correlation, nor am I criticizing the Stipe company, or the product (that would be blasphemy!). I am suggesting this may deserve more research to determine if there might be a a previously unknown and unexpected common denominator. 
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Old 09-20-2016, 05:45 AM   #13
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Default Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise

Katy, interesting tip: "Tip: You can check spring strength using your drill press and a bathroom scale."

When compressing the spring, how far do you compress it to determine if it meets the spec? Completely compressed or some specific distance?
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Old 09-20-2016, 08:57 AM   #14
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Default Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise

let us know how you make out
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Last edited by tbirdtbird; 02-03-2017 at 12:29 AM.
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Old 09-20-2016, 12:34 PM   #15
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Default Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise

Quote:
When compressing the spring, how far do you compress it to determine if it meets the spec? Completely compressed or some specific distance?
Spring spec is minimum what it should be a specified length.
I don't know the spec of the length on the camshaft plunger spring, I assume it would be the installed length. Unless you can find the length or someone posts it here you would have to calculate it.
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Old 09-20-2016, 02:50 PM   #16
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Default Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise

tbirdtbird, I will definitely post the fix when I figure it out. I just found this thread and it seems to be identical to my problem. Unfortynately the author: SAJ, never got back with the fix. Does anyone know if SAJ is still active?

http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...thrust+plunger
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Old 09-20-2016, 03:08 PM   #17
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Default Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise

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Originally Posted by Zener424 View Post
tbirdtbird, I will definitely post the fix when I figure it out. I just found this thread and it seems to be identical to my problem. Unfortynately the author: SAJ, never got back with the fix. Does anyone know if SAJ is still active?

http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...thrust+plunger
He just posted on 9/17/2016.

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Old 09-20-2016, 04:49 PM   #18
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Default Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise

Yes SAJ is still alive and active. Zener, I just replied in detail to your private message.
I stripped my Schwalms engine at 18000 miles due to cracked babbitt in all rods. Replaced the still new- looking fibre cam gear and steel crank gear with a new set of aluminium and steel gears from Snyders. Backlash was very small and too tight, but everything turned nicely without a bind so I went ahead and ran it like this. It now has a lower volume, more metallic knocking at idle. It still has a drilled and tapped timing case and adjustable thrust bolt in place of the plunger and spring. I did this to eliminate the plunger from the knocking problem on the fibre gear.
So I did not fix my rhythmic-knocking-on-idle problem, but improved it and changed its tone! Since I know all is OK inside the engine, I am ignoring the knock and piston slap I can hear when not fully warmed.
Pistons had 0.0035 clearance (dial bore gauge and checked with long thin feelers in case anyone doubts my ability to measure it!!) And pistons in the Tudor engine I assembled for my wife also have 0.0035 and run silently when cold. So I am not sure why my Schwalms engine is noisier. But piston slap might be disguising cam shaft gear clatter when running, which is why I mention it.
Maybe I should have replaced the dizzy drive gear like James Rogers did in an earlier post when he found an incompatible and knocking combination of cam and distrib. gears.
Recently we took out a broken fibre gear from a friend's phaeton and put in an aluminium gear. It was noisy so it was replaced by a woven fibre gear (Not A Macerated one!!!) and is now silent. My Alum. Gear is about as noisy as his was, but only audible as a rhythmic metallic knock at idle. It goes away when I replace the timing pin with a threaded polythene bolt pressing on the timing gear and loading it up both longitudinally and tangentially from friction
Not much help in my final analysis which is why I did not post a follow up.
SAJ in NZ
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Old 09-20-2016, 05:12 PM   #19
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Default Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise

One cure for any problems with the plunger spring is to machine up a spacer to fit inside the plunger to ONLY allow about .005 end float ,that will eliminate any noise from that area.
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Old 09-21-2016, 09:50 AM   #20
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Default Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise

Quote:
I also made sure the camshaft gear nut was tight.
Even w/the nut being tight, did you check that the gear is tight on the camshaft?

As James Rogers said in post #6, (answering to,"Does pressing on the camshaft gear through the timing hole and stopping the sound definitely indicate a thrust plunger spring problem?") This generally indicates a loose cam gear.
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