Battery Question,,

[Patrick L.]

How many have tried an 8v battery ?? results good or bad??

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

I have known several people this conversion but no one has ever been able to give me what I would consider a valid reason why it is better. A bad or faulty wiring harness is a reason why to upgrade to more voltage but replacing the wiring harness seems like a much more prudent thing to do to your car to keep the risk of fire at bay.

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[Purdy Swoft]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

I have known several people this conversion but no one has ever been able to give me what I would consider a valid reason why it is better. A bad or faulty wiring harness is a reason why to upgrade to more voltage but replacing the wiring harness seems like a much more prudent thing to do to your car to keep the risk of fire at bay.

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What does a bad wiring harness have to do with needing to upgrade to higher voltage??? A bad wiring harness would be more of a fire hazard with higher voltage. I have no problem with higher voltage but a bad wiring harness would NEVER be a reason for a change. I just find it hard to believe that ANYBODY would want more voltage on a bad harness.

[howie123]

As a student in the 70's I remember one of my mechanics teachers talking about switching to an 8 volt battery. Apparently this was quite common in the 50's and 60's if your car was pretty well worn out. The 8 volt battery would give a boost to wiper motors, heater fans, etc. that were just worn out and slowing down. At that time 8 volt batteries were readily available but I don't remember him mentioning 8 volt light bulbs etc.

[Purdy Swoft]

Originally Posted by howie123

As a student in the 70's I remember one of my mechanics teachers talking about switching to an 8 volt battery. Apparently this was quite common in the 50's and 60's if your car was pretty well worn out. The 8 volt battery would give a boost to wiper motors, heater fans, etc. that were just worn out and slowing down. At that time 8 volt batteries were readily available but I don't remember him mentioning 8 volt light bulbs etc.

when fan and wiper motors wear out they don't slow down, they just quit working. If a starter is draging it is a result of worn out bushings or poor ground and higher voltage doesn't solve either. The reason for upgrading to higher voltage is for BTIGHTER headlamps, faster cranking and the reserve power of higher voltage. My dads old late forties jeep had an eight volt battery and we never had problems with bulbs (sealed beam) or voltage regulator. The lights were SUPER BRIGHT and we liked it. Eight volt batteries haven't been readily available for many years and I wouldn't consider useing one for that reason. There use to be bulbs for model A that were listed for 6 or 8 volt use, these are now scearce and no longer made as far as I know. Six volt model A type bulbs will have a shorter life with 8 volt but WILL be brighter. The 6 volt bulbs listed in Brattons are only $1.25 each and I don't see this as a real problem.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

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Well Purdy, while your thought process is logical, ...'real world' is when a old wiring harness starts getting corrosion in the wires, and/or at the terminal ends. The higher voltage battery is more forgiving towards the resistance caused by the faulty wiring harness. A great proof of this is when a starter cable is too small on a 6v system, the starter does not turn the engine very fast yet if a 12v battery is used, less resistance is lost and the starter spins faster.

With regard to electric motors wearing out, actually they DO start slowing down as bushings allow armatures to misalign and brushes getting worn do not make good contact.

[aaron griffey]

I have found several model A Fords and even more model T Fords and early V8 Ford cars that have had the battery cables replaced with 12 volt cables.
12 volt cables are too small. You must use size #1 cables, from the battery to the starter and from the battery to the frame. anything smaller will not turn the engine over as fast as it should.
I have changed cables using welding cable. I like to use size 0, pronounced "ought". Get auto parts store cable ends and solder them on with a torch.
An 8 volt battery can be a headache. If you set the chargiing system up to keep an eight volt battery charged you may find that you burn out a lot of bulbs. And the 8 volt batteries cost more than a good 6 volt battery.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft

What does a bad wiring harness have to do with needing to upgrade to higher voltage??? A bad wiring harness would be more of a fire hazard with higher voltage. I have no problem with higher voltage but a bad wiring harness would NEVER be a reason for a change. I just find it hard to believe that ANYBODY would want more voltage on a bad harness.

Every connection that is loose or corroded adds resistance. This resistance caused a small voltage drop. Add up all the voltage drops and electrical things don't work as well. motors slow down, lamps aren't as bright etc.

If a person doesn't know better the easy fix is raise the voltage, hense the 8 volt battery. Now all those little voltage drops will still allow 6 volts to appear at the end of the wire.

It is the same mindset as moving from mechanical brakes, installing an alt, steering assist equipment, new carbs and so on. It is easier to mask problems then to fix them.

[skip]

A bad harness will soak up juice by requiring much more amps and much much much more voltage to push those amps through the wires. 6 volts is plenty.

You see when that chemical reaction that occurs in a battery the moment you turn a key, turn a switch or step on the starter, electrons flow from the battery, down the OUTSIDE of the wires. Always taking the path of least resistance, [more resistance is had when electrons flow THROUGH the wires, like a toaster getting red hot, or a light bulb burning] electrons flow on the outside of any conductor and connector and ground.

Want to 'flow' easier? Supply a larger high way for the electrons to go down. A larger high way can be a wire that is clean, where electrons don't need to be stopped, backed up and made to wait for the electrons in front to bipass the obstruction called corrosion or dirt. And electrons have a hard time flowing through crud and corrosion. They need to flow down clean copper, tight connections, have good insulations to keep the little guys from jumping ship and they need a way to get back home to the battery. Hence they need a 'beyond perfection' wiring harness. This describes the typical electrical issue with any Ford Model 'A'. Q~My horn doesn't work, why? A~Is it clean?

Do not doubt me on this.

skip.

[Purdy Swoft]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

Every connection that is loose or corroded adds resistance. This resistance caused a small voltage drop. Add up all the voltage drops and electrical things don't work as well. motors slow down, lamps aren't as bright etc.

If a person doesn't know better the easy fix is raise the voltage, hense the 8 volt battery. Now all those little voltage drops will still allow 6 volts to appear at the end of the wire.

It is the same mindset as moving from mechanical brakes, installing an alt, steering assist equipment, new carbs and so on. It is easier to mask problems then to fix them.

While I don't recommend using a bad wiring harness or an 8 volt battery, higher voltage isn't always masking a problem or a bandaid fix. For instance If a person is building a model A for a safe and dependable driver and national judging won't be an issue, a twelve volt negative ground electrical system will be an improvement. This can be done with an original generator and no readily visable changes. I always install a new wireing harness when I build another model A.

It is a novelty for me to make improvements that are not visable. I don't consider an upgrade to 12 volt a mortal sin.

[MCHinson]

If the electrical system is working the way it was designed, there is no need to make the conversion. Why "fix" it if is not "broke". I do not understand why you would want to change it to 12 volts, but it is your car and you can do what you want to with it.

[zzlegend]

I tried an 8 volt battery in my 54 chevy. Thought it would help on a little quicker starts. But my voltage regulator didnt seem to like it and acted a little strange. Then i tried an optimum 6 volt battery and everything seems happy. Seems to crank a little faster and amp gauge is happy. Just my opinion.

[Purdy Swoft]

Originally Posted by MCHinson

If the electrical system is working the way it was designed, there is no need to make the conversion. Why "fix" it if is not "broke". I do not understand why you would want to change it to 12 volts, but it is your car and you can do what you want to with it.

I purdy much covered it in my previous post. Its sort of like a broken record and people with closed minds don't have the capacity to understand. Its not like I am suggesting that anybody should run out and change a system that they are happy with. Six volt electrics have been obsolete for over 50 years. Correct size battery cables, batteries and bulbs are not always readily available on the road. Positive ground wasn't necessarily one of Henrys better ideas. I don't really believe that anybody really thinks that six volt lights are as bright as twelve volt. Dim six volt tail lamps are DANGERIOUS. Super fast cranking is also a plus. I am not suggesting the butchery of an original model A. It is really easy to upgrade without making visable modifications and there are no trade offs that I have found. I think that it is the best of both worlds and yes it is my car.

[MCHinson]

I don't want to argue the point but in my personal experience a properly operating 6 volt system gives headlights and tail lights just as bright as a 12 volt system. I will stick with my properly operating 6 volt system and not have to worry about potential problems caused by attempts to change things to 12 volts. To each his own...

[marc hildebrant]

Originally Posted by skip

You see when that chemical reaction that occurs in a battery the moment you turn a key, turn a switch or step on the starter, electrons flow from the battery, down the OUTSIDE of the wires. Always taking the path of least resistance, [more resistance is had when electrons flow THROUGH the wires, like a toaster getting red hot, or a light bulb burning] electrons flow on the outside of any conductor and connector and ground.

Skip,

AT DC, there is no skin effect.

Marc

[Purdy Swoft]

Originally Posted by MCHinson

I don't want to argue the point but in my personal experience a properly operating 6 volt system gives headlights and tail lights just as bright as a 12 volt system. I will stick with my properly operating 6 volt system and not have to worry about potential problems caused by attempts to change things to 12 volts. To each his own...

It sounds like thats what you are doing to me. 12 volt lights are brighter! I really don't care what volt you use, so don't waste your time worring about mine. I KNOW what I am doing.

[MCHinson]

As I said earlier, To each his own....

Apparently there are lots of us who KNOW what we are doing, but that does not mean that we can't be polite. Have a nice day.

[Purdy Swoft]

Originally Posted by MCHinson

As I said earlier, To each his own....

Apparently there are lots of us who KNOW what we are doing, but that does not mean that we can't be polite. Have a nice day.

I thought that I was being polite when I tried to explain my motives to Mike V. You decided to jump in. I never suggested that anyone should do anything. it is obvious that this is over your head. I don't intend to apologise for prefering a 12 volt system.

[Jerry Parr WI]

Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft

It sounds like thats what you are doing to me. 12 volt lights are brighter! I really don't care what volt you use, so don't waste your time worring about mine. I KNOW what I am doing.

The amount of light is a function of wattage not voltage for any given type light. Higher wattage 6 volts lights are available. Lower wattage 12 volt lights are also available. It is quite possible to get less light at a higher voltage. If you want 12 volts that's cool but it doesn't automatically make lights brighter unless you use the 6 volt bulbs. Those are called flash bulbs.

[skip]

"AT DC, there is no skin effect."

Marc, Without really knowing, I don't think that's right. The 'skin' is the surface provided to the electrons to 'run' on it. I can't be convinced that it is easier for an electron to go through a sold wire than travel over the surface. Alternating currant or Direct currant, juice always takes the easier path. That's why the ground strap on later systems is a wide, flat woven, made up from a huge number of conductors [wires]...the easiest path. So why is this not true?

Future cars will be so loaded down with electric crud that they will be using a 55 volt [2.2 volt per cell on a good day] system according to The Science Channel's story on the Chevy Volt and other GMC vehicles.

skip.